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Cereal Killer

A change to the hero deck system

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A big issue I have with the hero deck is that, in my experience, it has done nothing to stop my from doing what I did in early DD1: grind every hero I had available to me individually, or be behind because some defenses from some characters are better. While the latter point is a bit mitigated in this game, the former point (the grinding) is still in effect. With the new synergistic style of the four heroes' towers, it would only make sense that all three heroes in the hero deck grow in sync with each other. Thus I propose this:

Lower the overall experience gain to 50% of what it is now.

All three heroes in the hero deck get experience at the same exact time in the same exact amount, regardless of if they are in use or not.

This will allow people to not have to individually level each hero each run each map until they are finally at equal level to get to the next level category...only to do it again for the next five levels. 

This is literally the only problem I have with the hero deck. Hopefully we can get something like this so grinding isn't such a big part of the game, or at least a mandatory part of the game.


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I actually made a suggestion about this, i also hate the hero deck limit, i might post it here too, where i touch some points you do here too :)
Hero deck poses a limitation to our options and play style without giving us anything in exchange at all. It cuts our game play time.. and with zero bennefits. 

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I enjoy the Hero Deck because it means a single person cannot create every single defense and have a DPS character in the wings too.

I really like the idea of not having to swap to a specific hero to level them, but some sort of sliding scale may help to increase the leveling speed of under-level heroes in the deck, so that they can catch up and have all your heroes ready for the next stage together simultaneously.

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I also have an idea, how about the experience gets split by how many you have? Rather than cutting experience for everyone(even if they have a different play style) you could have it split the experience equally by how many hero's you currently have in the deck. It may be nice to nerf the overall experience gain a little with this tweak but I feel this would be a more fulfilling way to play.


Ex:  You have only one hero. Full experience 

       You have 2 heros in your deck.   Experience is cut by half.

      You have 3 heros in your deck.   Experience is cut by one third.


[[66671,users]] quote:

Lower the overall experience gain to 50% of what it is now.

All three heroes in the hero deck get experience at the same exact time in the same exact amount, regardless of if they are in use or not.

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[[64211,users]] quote:

I enjoy the Hero Deck because it means a single person cannot create every single defense and have a DPS character in the wings too.

I really like the idea of not having to swap to a specific hero to level them, but some sort of sliding scale may help to increase the leveling speed of under-level heroes in the deck, so that they can catch up and have all your heroes ready for the next stage together simultaneously.

[[66809,users]] quote:


I also have an idea, how about the experience gets split by how many you have? Rather than cutting experience for everyone(even if they have a different play style) you could have it split the experience equally by how many hero's you currently have in the deck. It may be nice to nerf the overall experience gain a little with this tweak but I feel this would be a more fulfilling way to play.


Ex:  You have only one hero. Full experience 

       You have 2 heros in your deck.   Experience is cut by half.

      You have 3 heros in your deck.   Experience is cut by one third.


Cereal Killer quote:

Lower the overall experience gain to 50% of what it is now.

All three heroes in the hero deck get experience at the same exact time in the same exact amount, regardless of if they are in use or not.

I think a combination of these would be nice; you can have a slider in your Hero Deck on how much EXP each hero in the deck gets. 

If not a slider, then perhaps something along the lines of 50% goes to active hero then 50% is split up among other heroes in the deck.

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[[64211,users]] quote:

I enjoy the Hero Deck because it means a single person cannot create every single defense and have a DPS character in the wings too.

I really like the idea of not having to swap to a specific hero to level them, but some sort of sliding scale may help to increase the leveling speed of under-level heroes in the deck, so that they can catch up and have all your heroes ready for the next stage together simultaneously.

You don't have even with a limited deck, it should be an option, you could simply not change since you're not forced to do so, however we who did like to change them will be left out :/ it's a cut in out choices, another limitation to our freedom :'(
Jokes aside we really shouldn't have limitations upon our playing style.. Do you like do play DD like a pokemon master (gotta have them all) why shouldn't we? 
A person can actually build everything on their own anyway, what would be the difference if he does or not have the ability to use all towers? They still win, extra characters take time and effort, so if i want to place time and effort of that kind i should be able to get something out of it even if it's my 4th or my 5th or 6th character.. For somebody with 6 maxed out characters, yes it's quite annoying to have a limitation and going back to tavern simply to switch. 

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[[43252,users]] quote:


Deaddin quote:

I enjoy the Hero Deck because it means a single person cannot create every single defense and have a DPS character in the wings too.

I really like the idea of not having to swap to a specific hero to level them, but some sort of sliding scale may help to increase the leveling speed of under-level heroes in the deck, so that they can catch up and have all your heroes ready for the next stage together simultaneously.

You don't have even with a limited deck, it should be an option, you could simply not change since you're not forced to do so, however we who did like to change them will be left out :/ it's a cut in out choices, another limitation to our freedom :'(
Jokes aside we really shouldn't have limitations upon our playing style.. Do you like do play DD like a pokemon master (gotta have them all) why shouldn't we? 
A person can actually build everything on their own anyway, what would be the difference if he does or not have the ability to use all towers? They still win, extra characters take time and effort, so if i want to place time and effort of that kind i should be able to get something out of it even if it's my 4th or my 5th or 6th character.. For somebody with 6 maxed out characters, yes it's quite annoying to have a limitation and going back to tavern simply to switch. 

I personally have never had a problem with only three heroes being available to me, and I find this limitation a bit more fun due to finding strategies that I never thought would work. However I see where you are coming from.


Let me humor y'all with a theoretical; say you have three heroes, Apprentice, Huntress, Monk, all at level 15. You are ready to go to the next mission level of 15-20. However, you want to get to that Squire you have so easily neglected due to the hero deck system. 

In the present system, our Squire would level slowly due to a) having to be used at all times to even gain exp. And b) the other two heroes are delegated to level 3 because of the limiting mission level system. However, (b) is in place so that level 50 characters don't find their way in a lvl 5 map.

As opposed by Gutu's "Pokemon master" wish, the Level 1 Squire would instead be able to participate in a level 15-20 map, but would be deadweight due to the level difference. And in the present exp system, you would be forced to use this deadweight to even level him. This is probably where Trendy got the idea of the mission level system in the first place, since they wanted to shift focus from towers only ala DD1, to both towers' and heroes' interaction with each other.

However, with the new exp system I am proposing, the Squire will level up quite quickly even while not being in use. As if the "Pokemon master" had an Exp. Share to train his weak pokemon without having to use them in battle(I really hope you all understand Pokemon, otherwise this falls apart a bit :P).


With this in mind, the new exp system would not only change the hero deck, but moreso change the mission level system, which is fine with me. Or at least change the MINIMUM HERO LEVEL REQUIREMENT having to be required for all three of your heroes in your deck.

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My problem is no where near the level requirement.. I have 6 maxed 25 heroes, and i can only use 3 at the time, and if i want to change let's see i joined a game where somebody else wants to build or has just built. i don't have access to my dpsers because i was thinking i'd be the one building, so i gotta exit to the entry tavern, change my deck and then i have to rejoin that map to actually do something with my dpsers.. You see the problem? 
It's not just in changing deck, but... once you reach maxed 3 heroes, getting more heroes to 25 is meaningless because they won't count towards your progression or development in game because it stops there, 3 heroes maxed is the highest output you have in a map. :/ while it's not required any higher to beat the game, we could use more time and effort by leveling more heroes but it's really not worth it as it will mean exactly zero to our progress and output on a map since you can really only use 3 

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To be honest, the way spec points are right now, you could just keep a suit of DPS equipment in a bag, and then swap gear for one of your builders to DPS if you really needed a DPS hero.

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[[64211,users]] quote:

To be honest, the way spec points are right now, you could just keep a suit of DPS equipment in a bag, and then swap gear for one of your builders to DPS if you really needed a DPS hero.

That's for now, when Speccing is free because we're here to test what about later? Also if that's the case, why can't we simply have the other heros then? isn't it the same? It just doesn't feel righhhhhht it's something that's taken away from us without giving us anything back

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Some things are done to increase the challenge, one of those things is having only 3 heroes available at a time.

Its the same type of reasoning used for not having infinite mana and defense limits.


The mana drop rate, the defense limit, and the hero deck all restrict what builds you can use to encourage participation and cooperation in the community.

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[[64211,users]] quote:

Some things are done to increase the challenge, one of those things is having only 3 heroes available at a time.

Its the same type of reasoning used for not having infinite mana and defense limits.


The mana drop rate, the defense limit, and the hero deck all restrict what builds you can use to encourage participation and cooperation in the community.

Mana is a resource for building, you can't even compare it to having available options. It's taking a piece of our gameplay, for people like me who like to use multiple heroes it simply limits my gaming style.

A game is meant to be done with 3 characters, however you can use 12 character in a multiplayer game, why aren't the multiplayer only allowed to use 3 which would even mean not being a 4 player co-op?

The game is meant to be completed, if you want to waste your time leveling extra heroes to complete the game easier it's your choice, you place time and effort and get something of it, if you want to go with less characters you can go. 

Gearing 1/2 characters is faster and easier than gearing 3 4 5 6 7 8  
Leveling 1/2 characters is way way faster and easier than leveling 3 4 5 6 7 8

It's time I want to put and effort, is it to make the game easier or simply to have the freedom to chose what i want?
Also there's no big advantage i bringing more heroes, and it will take a long time as hell, simply gives you more hours of play on end game as you max another characters for specific reasons.

It should be your choice, i believe it's easier and faster to deal with the whole game with 1 character than with 3, also the game content is so easy you can beat with 1, why aren't we only allowed to use 1 character then?


There are many ways to see it, the difference is, with  limited options some won't be able to play the way they like and enjoy, while some will, however with a limitless hero deck, what would change? those who rather play with less characters are still free to do so, people right now choose to solo all with one hero sometimes, others like with 3 and they do with 3, me, who likes 4,5,6,7,8 characters, why am I left out? why really difference would it make for others if I who worked hard to get 8 characters, had 8 characters? it's the fruit of my work and effort..  

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I agree with Gutu on this one. We should have the freedom to max out and use every hero we wish. That is part of the reason I have put so many hours into DD1. However, I do understand that some people like the limitation of just access to three heroes so why not have a Strategy mode where you're limited by the hero deck. Since many have said we don't gain anything from the hero deck we are just hindered by it.

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Id like to see the ability to fastswap heroes using the selected ones in the hero deck. Like change 1-3 on the keyboard during build phase to your hero deck numbers. Right now you need to run all the way across the map to find the forge (twice) just to place one tower from another class when most players just want to go go go.

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I like the idea behind your concept but not everything about it.

For example it would still be a major pain leveling your fourth character. Or if at any point you wished to level a single character. With the amendment that the experience gain is reduced to 50% of what it is now per hero in the deck (effectively 150% XP) but distributed amongst heroes that are not yet max level I am fully on board.

It would look as follows

   3 heroes that aren't max level : 50% / 50% / 50%

   2 heroes that aren't max level : 75% / 75%

   1 hero that isn't max level : 150%

To get the 75% and 150% a max level hero would have to be in you deck meaning that you had previously leveled 3 heroes to 25 and are now making say a fourth or making more characters.


Although overall I think the XP is fine and feel like a different system whereby you get 50% more XP per max level hero compounded would be a better system. In which case the XP gained from 1 to 7 heroes would be as follows:

   100% / 150% / 225% / 337.5 / 506.5% / 759.375% / 1139.0625%

These numbers would probably need to be tuned a bit of a ceiling would have to be implemented but currently leveling characters is just to painful and I feel like a 500% XP would be a good ceiling to aim for possible if you have a total of 6 or 8 heroes at max level. At the point you have 6 or 8 heroes your probably on making characters to have ever possible potentially useful build readily available without needed to swap items in a cumbersome inventory system and I think this would suit that purpose well whilst still delivering some 'leveling fun'.

Alternately they could just fix the inventory system and make it so you can bind items into sets that you can change with a double click or possible select from an item set menu individually each wave.

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I feel like the hero deck system would be fine if they got rid of the idea of tower hero's and dps hero's, They should make 4 slots of armor and 4 slots of trinkets your hero's can use, Armor will effect hero stats and trinkets will effect tower stats. I feel like we would get more bang for our buck if our 3 hero's could dps/build.

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[[66057,users]] quote:

I feel like the hero deck system would be fine if they got rid of the idea of tower hero's and dps hero's, They should make 4 slots of armor and 4 slots of trinkets your hero's can use, Armor will effect hero stats and trinkets will effect tower stats. I feel like we would get more bang for our buck if our 3 hero's could dps/build.

uh? where did you get that idea from? 
We still have hero builders and hero dpsers.. it's a huge part of the game, if they actually got ride of that it would send the game to trash, basically everybody does everything everywhere any time with no single sign of uniqueness 

Players need a way to distinguish themselves, the only complain i heard from DD1 end-game that actually made sense to me is that people would recycle the same builds exactly turning into lack of originality and uniqueness. 

You're free to do a hybryd it's really up to you but don't force everybody else to do it...

I loved having a specific hero for everything.. i even had a EV waller just to make the damn walls, variety helps a game a lot in the long term.

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The current hero-deck really restricts gameplay. Many players use a Huntress and Monk Kombo for building. Add a third character as dps and the deck is full. Wanna add a Ballista or Ice-Tower to the mix? Nope, because of reasons... There are masses of small-fry mobs and you want to hack'n slash through them with your other dps? Not going because of reasons... Try out another tower setup than usual? Again, reasons...


Try replacing reasons with hero-deck limit.

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[[67515,users]] quote:

The current hero-deck really restricts gameplay. Many players use a Huntress and Monk Kombo for building. Add a third character as dps and the deck is full. Wanna add a Ballista or Ice-Tower to the mix? Nope, because of reasons... There are masses of small-fry mobs and you want to hack'n slash through them with your other dps? Not going because of reasons... Try out another tower setup than usual? Again, reasons...


Try replacing reasons with hero-deck limit.

This is why I suggested a better trade off for the hero deck, I still don't see how using a one character for dps only makes the game more deep or w/e. At the end of the day you are gonna be using either towers or hero dmg to kill things and switching to a new character does not make that harder. 

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This, this is really my biggest gripe right now with the game. Back in dd1 I used everything. When I say everything I used stuff that was not even in meta. Just to make the most elaborate cool builds. Now I'm stuck using 3 defenders who have 1 tower loss on each of them. If there is gonna be more emphasis on the defender why limit variety of defenses to put up when in the end your still only using one defender during the wave. Its not like your not still restricted by the du limit, and you don't have a summoner using completely different set of su. In the end its just a an unneeded limitation.

Gutu quote:

I actually made a suggestion about this, i also hate the hero deck limit, i might post it here too, where i touch some points you do here too :)
Hero deck poses a limitation to our options and play style without giving us anything in exchange at all. It cuts our game play time.. and with zero bennefits. 


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Honestly speaking, the Hero Deck really annoys me. It's clunky, unclear and not really needed. Moving on...

No, I don't think we should gain experience based on the heroes within the deck. Why? Because as soon as you out level them, they're kicked from your deck which will ultimately lower your exp until you bring them up to par. And then there is the obvious part where having all 3 of your current Deck Heroes being max level makes it entirely pointless. You should not be rewarded for having characters in your deck (seriously, that is far too easy, they'd basically have to lower all exp entirely to compensate). You should be rewarded for something difficult to do, such as reaching max level with a character. But this normally only works out well in games with multiple characters to level. With only 3 Heroes currently and an available 6 slots, I don't feel like we would have enough characters to warrant it. Also, if you're playing together with someone, you'd end up out leveling them. Even if we had 12 characters, by then we'd have so many missions and maps that would make it even less likely.

Overall, leveling is easy. It's a part of the game but hardly a major part of it. You level up as you play normally, no reason to rush it. Also, why would they give us an easier way of leveling for free when this kind of game works better without Experience Boosters? If anything, they'd make us pay for it.

I understand that the Deck System is here so a single person can't start up a multiplayer match, use every character they have to place down all the traps and then go to their DPS Hero only to have someone join and be entirely useless because they had already done everything.

I understand that it's a simple restriction to make you think out what you would like to do better but ultimately I just focus on the one DPS character and one Defense character and call it a day. Once I get bored or hit max level with one of them, I'll switch it up. It's a limitation that I don't find was required. Sure, making character selection faster and different is fine but I don't see the point in limited our hero pool. Even more so when we don't know what our allies have available either.

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I've only got about 7 hours into the game but here is how I see things unfolding for a large majority of players that are either new or old. 

1.) When you first join everything is new and shiny and you get all exited about it, you are confronted with a choice of 4 heroes (currently) so you choose one and start playing. As you level you realize other people are using some cool towers and you want to try them out too, so you go to switch to a new class. After you do switch you are confronted with a level 1 class with only 1 tower, you think this is okay I can level this one up as well. You play through a few games and get leveled up but as you see other cool towers you want to try them out, so you switch.... (You see where this is going.)

2.) After having tried out classes you realize you can only have three classes in your "deck" and so sadness sets in as you are limited to only 3 classes or 12 towers and 6 unique abilities. Out of those 12 towers you only really use 6 or 7 of them depending on the map and waves, you become sad and grow tired of the same towers being used OR you find an amazing build set-up that just works and stick to that. (Monk+Huntress) 

Now these things are player to player but personally after thinking on these points I really do feel like this is my experience, I have a level 16 Apprentice in about 7 hours of game-play strictly playing, now to get to 25 I see another 10 hours if I play Hard and win every time, so about 17 hours per class, with multiple classes getting released that is a large chunk of time dedicated to leveling a class, which could have been spent gearing them for higher and tougher levels. 

I would like to see a change to either the limit of classes, or the ability to level classes at the same time that are in my deck, or course this does not clear up other problems but it would be a good start. I had about 300 hours on DD1 and I can see just as much here if things get changed. 

My point is this; do not limit the player to such an obvious arrow to the knee because what made DD1 great is the option to play anything and everything and that is what kept me in the game for all those hours. 

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[[67515,users]] quote:

The current hero-deck really restricts gameplay. Many players use a Huntress and Monk Kombo for building. Add a third character as dps and the deck is full. Wanna add a Ballista or Ice-Tower to the mix? Nope, because of reasons... There are masses of small-fry mobs and you want to hack'n slash through them with your other dps? Not going because of reasons... Try out another tower setup than usual? Again, reasons...


Try replacing reasons with hero-deck limit.

Or you could, call me crazy, play with a group of friends who coordinate their characters and play off each other strengths so you have a hunter, squire, monk, apprentice combo. The deck encourages teamplay and cooperation. I like it.

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[[5651,users]] quote:


drache198 quote:

The current hero-deck really restricts gameplay. Many players use a Huntress and Monk Kombo for building. Add a third character as dps and the deck is full. Wanna add a Ballista or Ice-Tower to the mix? Nope, because of reasons... There are masses of small-fry mobs and you want to hack'n slash through them with your other dps? Not going because of reasons... Try out another tower setup than usual? Again, reasons...


Try replacing reasons with hero-deck limit.

Or you could, call me crazy, play with a group of friends who coordinate their characters and play off each other strengths so you have a hunter, squire, monk, apprentice combo. The deck encourages teamplay and cooperation. I like it.

The thing is, some people do not have a lot of friends who play this, or have not met anyone, or just do not want to add people to play with solely on this game, and it might look like it encourages team-play but it really does not. 

What if you join a group that has the exact same deck as you, or 1 different class then you. You get stuck with similar builds and thus there might be "team play" and "cooperation" but there really is not. The meta right now is basically Monk, Archer, Squire, as that is the best combo out there right now and it being used by a large majority of players. The whole mechanic of a Deck that limits you to 3 classes is absurd and even when new classes get released you will continue to get groups that have matching classes because of what is strong at the time. The biggest suggestion so far has been; let people choose to play with or with-out the deck, because what made DD1 great was being able to play everything, not being LIMITED to only 12 towers of which only a handful of those get used.

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