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Arthas

Please scrap this F2P plan.

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The title says it. Why? Why F2P? Why this path, it literally makes DD2 a mobile class game with grinding.

These are two top reviews on steam, first one points out biggest problems with the game.

I know that F2P in the long run will give you more money but you're ruining other people experience, this is not the way DD was meant to be.

First moba and now F2P grinder. Why, why did you have to ruin my dreams of a second good and fun DD game?

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Yup the game is a complete brainless grindfest right now. DD1 was so much fun until hackers and cheaters made the whole experience pointless. But in DD2 most towers are completely useless. The game is basically glorified shovelware.

My suggestions:

1. This is a tower defence game first and foremost. Towers need to be several times stronger. Only the monk's shock trap in combination with the hunter's water trap seems to be worth using. I do not want to be spamming left click and pressing 'E' on evironment traps the entire game doing 90% of the work myself.

2. There needs to be more money. It is no fun only being able to build like 4 upgraded towers per map. If a tower dies (and they will because of how weak they are) you might as well restart the whole map.


3. As much as I appreciate them trying to make the game encourage teamwork it should not be impossible to finish some maps without certain classes in your party. Right now if you don't abuse certain class combinations you will not be able to finish harder maps without 9000 years grinding exp and gear on the easy maps. It just isn't fun.



 

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Not sure why F2P has to automatically equal bad, PoE and LoL are both F2P and great games. The game is still in alpha and evolving greatly based on player feedback

Aries37 With proper tower placement/upgrading and making sure you keep your gear up to date the towers can take care of the vast majority of the enemies., you only really need to assist with the special mobs. Of course the worse you gear/build is in comparison to the map you're on the more work you need to put in.

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Kai Heilos quote:

Not sure why F2P has to automatically equal bad, PoE and LoL are both F2P and great games. The game is still in alpha and evolving greatly based on player feedback

Aries37 With proper tower placement/upgrading and making sure you keep your gear up to date the towers can take care of the vast majority of the enemies., you only really need to assist with the special mobs. Of course the worse you gear/build is in comparison to the map you're on the more work you need to put in.

You need to grind EXP to get an access to the next mission.

It's all that needs to be said.


I have nothing against PoE but LoL has terrible payment design.

You need to grind to unlock new heroes. * Hurr durr that makes game more rewarding and more interesting ".

No. No. As an example Dota 2 has all heroes available from the start. And people count over thousands of hours on that game. Gameplay itself is rewarding, not unlocking new heroes to play with.


You need to be online to play this, really Trendy, really?

  • Levels are limited to the player level - check
  • Grinding - check.
  • Always need to be online: check.


This is nothing but a cheap mmo from my perspective. I'd even call this a phone game.

Oh and fun doesn't end here just yet, when it's released it will form a ***tiest community possible, as all F2P games do.

I can't wait to get matched (If I even play this on release) with some Russians who cannot speak in English and have a terrible game.

I'd better pay 100 euros for a normal DD2, not this grindfest.


Early access on steam, you need to pay for that. And what after the release? You'll get some useless in-game crap for 10$.

Other F2P early access games had beta free tests or even invites were given away to be able to test the game and help the developers, like dead island epidemic as an example.


And here you need to pay money to test your free game and do you a favor? Nice.

DD was is my favorite co-op game of all time, for me it's ten times better than Borderlands.

I have spent hundreds of hours with my friend on it. And after that they bring this up on the table.


Emlandrake The grindfest after exp and gear is what made me love DD1. Quick progress is not as fun as doing it slow in my opinion.


My guess is that you're a long time MMORPG player. If you want to repeat the levels it's your personal choice to grind an item from specific boss.

But now this is not your choice anymore, you NEED to grind the same level now.

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The title says it. Why? Why F2P? Why this path, it literally makes DD2 a mobile class game with grinding.

The gameplay of the game would be the same whether it's free to play or not. They are not building the game around the business model. What you're getting is something more like League of Legends, where nothing ever needs to be bought and the game is more or less no different from what it would be if the ingame store didn't exist.

In other words, like the game or not, it would be the way it is whether it was going free to play or not.

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[[48678,users]] quote:

I have nothing against PoE but LoL has terrible payment design.

You need to grind to unlock new heroes. * Hurr durr that makes game more rewarding and more interesting ".

No. No. As an example Dota 2 has all heroes available from the start. And people count over thousands of hours on that game. Gameplay itself is rewarding, not unlocking new heroes to play with.

League of Legends has people with over thousands and thousands of hours as well. Your point here is moot. Dota2 went a different model from LoL. That's fine, that was their design choice. It works for them. Good for them. League works for League. Good for Riot. Don't bring their gameplay into a discussion about payment models, because that's not how you want to frame your argument.

I understand your reason for being upset. I do wish DD2 went the one-time-payment model myself, but I also understand why they went with the model they did. Ultimately, the beta access isn't something you deserve - If you want to play it, then you pay to get in and you also get to help shape the direction of the game. That's not something that should just be given for no reason.

Once the game is out of beta and shaping the direction is no longer necessary, the game will be made publicly available for free. This is something they've talked about for a while and should be common knowledge by now. Their payment model replicates DotA2's - with the key difference of having to buy the beta, rather than being given it. Which I think is fair, because no one who played the Dota2 model had a direct say in anything that occurred in the game's development. Frankly, Trendy is doing a fantastic job in their creation of DD2 - Sure, there's lumps here and there but those are bound to happen. We're not asking you to pay so you can play the game, we're asking you to pay so you can shape the game.

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For everyone complaining that you need to grind to reach the next stage, Just stop. Please stop. The game is in PRE-ALPHA! Do you guys not seem to know what that means? The game isn't finished. There is still more content to be added. Just because it is a free to play game (soon) dosen't make the game bad by default. There are literally thousands of great successful free to play games.

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[[48678,users]] quote:
You need to grind EXP to get an access to the next mission.

It's all that needs to be said.


I have nothing against PoE but LoL has terrible payment design.

You need to grind to unlock new heroes. * Hurr durr that makes game more rewarding and more interesting ".

No. No. As an example Dota 2 has all heroes available from the start. And people count over thousands of hours on that game. Gameplay itself is rewarding, not unlocking new heroes to play with.


You need to be online to play this, really Trendy, really?

  • Levels are limited to the player level - check
  • Grinding - check.
  • Always need to be online: check.


My guess is that you're a long time MMORPG player. If you want to repeat the levels it's your personal choice to grind an item from specific boss.

But now this is not your choice anymore, you NEED to grind the same level now.

I'm not sure where everyone like yourself is coming from with these points of view. To start with, you realistically only need to complete each map once, perhaps repeat one or two twice to reach the next level bracket. Each map has also been beautifully made to immerse the player in wonderful atmosphere, each level independent of another. 

The level brackets are there for the moment to prevent people from boosting low level characters straight to max level, and each bracket offers new maps to try different strategies. There's nothing wrong with this. What you're paying for with the defence council, is the ability for maximum progressive input into a game in alpha. There is hardly any grinding involved if you use all hero/tower strategies available to you from level 1. 

Addressing your issues with the "bad community" on F2P, quite frankly bashing a game in alpha, talking about it's 'bad monetization model' and providing a terribly constructed biased opinion based on what is almost 0 play time, is what's going to cause the community to turn to trash. The games mechanics are as they are, so instead of condemning the game entirely, play it for a good few hours. Investigate ALL it has to offer and try almost everything you can, and then come back and tell me that it's a boring grindfest. Assuming you're smart with your in game item choices and choose to use heroes/towers appropriately you will not have any issues.

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I'm a bit wary of the F2P model the game has decided to adapt to, especially since the original was a one time payment excluding dlc, but some of my favorite PC games are F2P so I'm willing to see where the game heads.  The level barrier hasn't seemed really annoying and I just percieved it as a balancing decision to force actual leveling and not powerleveling, just like the whole hero deck thing seems to force you to have to rely on other players at times as opposed to DD1 where you could just set up all the defenses solo, swapping between each character.  I have high hopes for the game as DD1 is still one of my favorites, and if anything I'd like to hope that a f2p model will help to extend the game's lifespan.

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I believe we should not judge a game on whether it's F2P or not, but rather if it's a good F2P or not.

Is dungeon Defenders 2 going to be a good F2P? What does exactly mean a bad F2P?
To answer that, Trendy hopes to make this game as great as possible with no Advantage or anything close to it being sold for money. Which this means we can scratch the  P2W out of the usual issues, what other issues are there in a F2P game? 

Let's really see what's behind bad F2P games:

  • Rushed content 
  • P2W (DD2 won't fit here)
  • Huge community which means entrance for more toxic players

There has been some mentions about rushed content  and Trendy as stated that this would not e an issue as they'll let things take it's time to keep it alright.

P2W... has clearly been scratched from their list, there won't be any advantage for sale

Toxic Player control features are being developed, Trendy does care a lot about this game and will make their best to make this as good as possible.


Now regarding your issue with grinding, the game is still pre alpha, but even so, IF you level a single hero and solo the whole game it takes on average about 25 hours to complete it, and you won't have to repeat any map more than 2/3 times, i'd like to know how are you saying it's a grind fest.. Multi-character playing does talk more to level but that's only natural, as you'll be taking 3 times as much time or 2 times as much time, it's your choice to follow this path if you want to use multiple heroes it will take longer.

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Comments about the grind are fair, but to to say the F2P model needs to be dropped because of it is rather silly. The game has only just come out to the general public. If you think something needs to be changed, you just need to put your opinion up.

I do agree that tower mana needs to be increased, as it seems to be incredibly rare compared to hero mana. I'm constantly out of tower mana, but I've yet to run out of hero mana.

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People calling this a grind have obviously never played a game with real grind.  In ~10 hours, I have 2 level 10's(monk and squire) and a level 11(huntress).  Nowhere near what I'd call a grind.

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[[31033,users]] quote:

People calling this a grind have obviously never played a game with real grind.  In ~10 hours, I have 2 level 10's(monk and squire) and a level 11(huntress).  Nowhere near what I'd call a grind.

Well, I believe that when people call DD2 a grind, this is relative to the way DD1 was structured.

DD1: Finish this map? Great! You unlock the next map and hard mode for the one you just finished.

DD2: Finish this map? Great! Now do it again *Or like 10 more times* to unlock the next map/hard mode.
^ This becomes more evident in the 15-20 bracket, as I've just experienced.

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Grind to reach the next stage? ... you get freaking 2+ levels every single game... how can you people not reach the next stage withotu grinding.




[[66072,users]] quote:

Yup the game is a complete brainless grindfest right now. DD1 was so much fun until hackers and cheaters made the whole experience pointless. But in DD2 most towers are completely useless. The game is basically glorified shovelware.

My suggestions:

1. This is a tower defence game first and foremost. Towers need to be several times stronger. Only the monk's shock trap in combination with the hunter's water trap seems to be worth using. I do not want to be spamming left click and pressing 'E' on evironment traps the entire game doing 90% of the work myself.

2. There needs to be more money. It is no fun only being able to build like 4 upgraded towers per map. If a tower dies (and they will because of how weak they are) you might as well restart the whole map.


3. As much as I appreciate them trying to make the game encourage teamwork it should not be impossible to finish some maps without certain classes in your party. Right now if you don't abuse certain class combinations you will not be able to finish harder maps without 9000 years grinding exp and gear on the easy maps. It just isn't fun.



 

1. Meh, I would say a player has to do 50% of the work else you just stand back and watch :P


2. Just slightly more, but tbh cant judge since im only like lvl 23 or something so i dont know how much gems you get endgame-wise in a match, maybe more.. who knows. However if they give you more gems, they would have to increase mobstrenght ... or they have to nerf the monk electric aura since 1 t4 field at every lane makes it an instawin :P (not saying Monk is to strong in any way, its just that having a permastun that deals dmg might be annoying to fit in with the rest of the towers)

3. Only class i would say would be sweet to have is Monk, as long as there is one of those.. the rest doesnt even matter that much.

(p.s. really not saying Monk is to strong, just saying that if they change stuff i would love them to make mobs slightly stronger and then buff other classes to be equal to Monk)

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[[64821,users]] quote:


lordrahl quote:

People calling this a grind have obviously never played a game with real grind.  In ~10 hours, I have 2 level 10's(monk and squire) and a level 11(huntress).  Nowhere near what I'd call a grind.

Well, I believe that when people call DD2 a grind, this is relative to the way DD1 was structured.

DD1: Finish this map? Great! You unlock the next map and hard mode for the one you just finished.

DD2: Finish this map? Great! Now do it again *Or like 10 more times* to unlock the next map/hard mode.
^ This becomes more evident in the 15-20 bracket, as I've just experienced.

Just got from lvl 21,1 to 23,3 in 1 match :P

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[[65543,users]] quote:

Just got from lvl 21,1 to 23,3 in 1 match :P

Wat. Wat. Wat. Few questions with regards to that:

1.) Did you notice a slowdown in exp gain in the 15-20 bracket? (that's currently where I am with a 15 mage and 17 monk) cause I get about 70-90% exp per match in said bracket.

2.) Solo or Group?

3.) What Map/Difficulty?

- A bit jelly on the level gains.

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JUSTINtime quote:


Timeraider quote:

Just got from lvl 21,1 to 23,3 in 1 match :P

Wat. Wat. Wat. Few questions with regards to that:

1.) Did you notice a slowdown in exp gain in the 15-20 bracket? (that's currently where I am with a 15 mage and 17 monk) cause I get about 70-90% exp per match in said bracket.

2.) Solo or Group?

3.) What Map/Difficulty?

- A bit jelly on the level gains.

1. Slightly, i however always have at least 1 level when i join from the start. But yeah, it does go slower.

2. 4-man group, 2 hunters and a mage (randoms) + me as monk

3. normal difficulty.. i dont know the mapname but its the map whereby you're in a palace and outside it storms, it also has an ogre boss. (the subcores are cannons shooting at flying ships i believe). I was a Monk .. the other 3 members took the 3 sidelanes and i took the 2 middle lanes alone. (ofcourse to make it fair and balance it out i was placing stuff at the sidelanes to :P)

I must say at times it was an amazing mess.. keeping litterally 40-50 enemies stuck inside my fields ramming them straight into hell.

Dont be jealous however since i havent told you my luck yet...

i can assure you.. people have never seen this many greys and greens as i have. Seen people 5+ levels lower then me with more item level then me simply because i never find good stuff XD


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[[65543,users]] quote:


JUSTINtime quote:


Timeraider quote:

Just got from lvl 21,1 to 23,3 in 1 match :P

Wat. Wat. Wat. Few questions with regards to that:

1.) Did you notice a slowdown in exp gain in the 15-20 bracket? (that's currently where I am with a 15 mage and 17 monk) cause I get about 70-90% exp per match in said bracket.

2.) Solo or Group?

3.) What Map/Difficulty?

- A bit jelly on the level gains.

1. Slightly, i however always have at least 1 level when i join from the start. But yeah, it does go slower.

2. 4-man group, 2 hunters and a mage (randoms) + me as monk

3. normal difficulty.. i dont know the mapname but its the map whereby you're in a palace and outside it storms, it also has an ogre boss. (the subcores are cannons shooting at flying ships i believe). I was a Monk .. the other 3 members took the 3 sidelanes and i took the 2 middle lanes alone. (ofcourse to make it fair and balance it out i was placing stuff at the sidelanes to :P)

I must say at times it was an amazing mess.. keeping litterally 40-50 enemies stuck inside my fields ramming them straight into hell.

Dont be jealous however since i havent told you my luck yet...

i can assure you.. people have never seen this many greys and greens as i have. Seen people 5+ levels lower then me with more item level then me simply because i never find good stuff XD


Hmm... probably more exp if more people. I usually play solo which is probably why. I'll probably try to go with groups more as my experience so far has only shown me very few competent players and a lot of arrogant/stubborn nubs.

Also, I believe that map is ramparts. 

Item-wise, I have had some luck so I guess I can be thankful for that. I quite often get epic drops from Ogres. Just got my first mythical chest earlier today (not what I was looking for, but still). 

//

Just realized we were getting OT, back to the thread topic, while I'd much prefer a one-time purchase for DD2, I wouldn't completely dismiss F2P just yet. It's obviously too early to tell how DD2 will implement this model, but I believe that when done right, it can keep the players happy and the game/company profitable. As with previous examples in-thread, DotA 2 is a great example of F2P done right. With over 2.4k hours on it, I've happily spent more money on this game than what I would have if it was a one-time purchase. As long as the cash shop items are only aesthetic/does not affect actual game play at all, it'll be fine. 


A fear of mine though when it comes to F2P is they might start selling EXP/Drop Chance boosters (as some F2P MMOs do). While it doesn't present a blatantly P2W game, it might lean towards more of a Freemium kind of game where to make playing it feel more rewarding/worth it, you need to buy boosters/premium of some sort.

TL;DR: Don't panic about F2P, but its implementation will ultimately determine if it was a good call by Trendy.

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