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The Squire "Nerf" (Balance) And how i feel its Justified.


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I'm sorry, but the apprentice can not dps for squat. The monks dps is also pretty low.

I'm tired of hearing about nerfs, the game isn't supposed to be about nerfing. This ridiculousness that people like YOU keep crying over a class being "overpowered". No class is overpowered. If you care about the leaderboards FINE, leave the 99% of the population out of your crying fits.

Its ridiculous and petty.


um, i never cryed nerf. i havent even been crying. Just been talking rationally with those willing to participate.

Clearly you are not, so ill end our discussion here.

Sorry.

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Sounds intresting, ill have to try it when i hit 70 on my App.

Though i imagine tower spam makes most anythign possible haha. Heck i trap spam on my huntress and breeze through it, so 3 DU Magic Missles should be preety beastly with the amount of damage that would dish out.


Not so much spamming replacements, as walls of MMs that can actually track mobs and can eat through ogres before they can get into melee.

I already do it on ramparts, tried it on the halloween map, but since the crystals are so close to the spawns, the kobolds would eventually overwhelm them. (theres a kobold wave, and the one after isnt much better) Only got to wave 10 doing all magic missiles. I might be able to pull it off if I space them out to absorb kobold blasts better.

Squire needs some ranged damage. maybe not the old damage, but they aren't even close to apps.

Maybe the next patch buffs will be enough, I don't know, I hope so.

Edit:

yes, app can dps. Its just far better at AoE creep waves. Max multishot and point blank the boss.

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No it doesnt the help the mage will just heal through the damage the electric aura does.


Aura spec monks should be able to mow down mages. Mages are too dumb to stop and heal if they are still far enough from thier target. So just make sure they are placed far enough away from the walls so it gets them as they pass by.

Or Stryker Towers are good for offing mages, or even harpoons since they perice through the skellys to take out the mage.

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Not so much spamming replacements, as walls of MMs that can actually track mobs and can eat through ogres before they can get into melee.

I already do it on ramparts, tried it on the halloween map, but since the crystals are so close to the spawns, the kobolds would eventually overwhelm them. (theres a kobold wave, and the one after isnt much better) Only got to wave 10 doing all magic missiles. I might be able to pull it off if I space them out to absorb kobold blasts better.

Squire needs some ranged damage. maybe not the old damage, but they aren't even close to apps.

Maybe the next patch buffs will be enough, I don't know, I hope so.


Well like i said, my squire with tower spec still does 1200 dps with harpoons and bowling balls, which is more than enough to kill things reasonably. Yeah its not Apprentice blasty blast damage, but it gets the job done.

Also, i noticed the buffed Slice and Dice's damage, which is good, it needed it. As it was lower DPS than bumpers.

But yeah i kinda wanna try the MM Spam for the lulz later today, i need a good laugh haha.

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As a Squire player, I mostly agree with the Squire nerfs. I think they need to encourage some class interdependence, to promote team play. 3 friends and I bought the Steam 4-pack, but we rarely play as a full group because of how much more effective solo/2-player games are.

Personally, I'd be 100% behind the Squire rebalancing if we got something else to support our defense niche. Somewhere in another thread I saw something about reducing tower Squire DPS, but giving more knockback/higher fire rate. I think this would work perfectly in conjunction with the more offensively oriented and more accurate Apprentice towers, while still keeping Auras/Traps useful.

Although it most likely will not come to this, due to hero swapping, I'd rather they make it so that nobody can solo rather than have everybody soloing. This is supposed to be a team game.


They shouldn't let you swap heroes in the middle of a map. If you want to mix squire towers and apprentice towers then find someone else to play with. It's a multiplayer game. I really feel the ability to swap your hero during a map is a huge detriment to the game. And I'm someone who has all classes leveled to 70 and pretty good gear on multiple characters. It just feels cheesy to do everything by yourself. There is no reason to play with other people.

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Aura spec monks should be able to mow down mages. Mages are too dumb to stop and heal if they are still far enough from thier target. So just make sure they are placed far enough away from the walls so it gets them as they pass by.

Or Stryker Towers are good for offing mages, or even harpoons since they perice through the skellys to take out the mage.


Are you playing on easy mode, Mages are extremely smart on Insane not to mention fairly decent on hard, They always step out of the auras for me and just heal away. Magic missle does so little damage that you would have to have 3 of them hitting one single orc on insane to maybe kill it while a mage heals it.

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The nerfs were justified, but not the degree and level they were at. Later today they're buffing Squire DPS as well as the Huntress' pierce shot.

The nerf was too great and many players had the right to complain.


Edit: Here's a list of the patch notes coming in.

- Fixed Private Match joining bug. Temporary workaround for 7.06: If you are experiencing issues joining a friends match or friend joining yours, toggle the Show/Hide Match button in the pause menu.

-Increased Squire Tower DPS by 30% from 7.06 (sorry about the over-nerf folks -- some reduction was necessary but that was too much)

-Increased Squire Harpoon, Bowling Ball, & Slicer HP ramps by 25%

-Increased Huntress Piercing Shot Damage Ramp by 15%

-Increased repair speed vs Tower HP (higher HP towers will now repair significantly faster than before, as exponential falloff is applied to the repair time)

-Slice & Dice Tower Z-check will only ignore stuff well above it, not below it (so it'll once again chop goblins and such approaching from below)

-Reduced Kobold explosion AoE to pre-7.06 value

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They shouldn't let you swap heroes in the middle of a map. If you want to mix squire towers and apprentice towers then find someone else to play with. It's a multiplayer game. I really feel the ability to swap your hero during a map is a huge detriment to the game. And I'm someone who has all classes leveled to 70 and pretty good gear on multiple characters. It just feels cheesy to do everything by yourself. There is no reason to play with other people.


Its mainly for your weekend warriors who dont have as much time to play with friends so they solo alot and it allows them to solo better without hurting anythign too much.

I can do it, but i definatly still prefer to play with friends. But they have to appeal to solo'ist and group players in a buissness standpoint.

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They shouldn't let you swap heroes in the middle of a map. If you want to mix squire towers and apprentice towers then find someone else to play with. It's a multiplayer game. I really feel the ability to swap your hero during a map is a huge detriment to the game. And I'm someone who has all classes leveled to 70 and pretty good gear on multiple characters. It just feels cheesy to do everything by yourself. There is no reason to play with other people.


Some people just like the single player aspect of games. No reason to make them Have to join or let others join when they do not want to. Then again I like the MP aspect, just not the ridic mob scaling that overwhelms everyone due to sheer numbers. Also I've been reading the forums since .06 came out (Not slept :() and the general opinion is that people like to be able to play solo. I also have one of every character (2 @ 70 and others catching up) which I use when needed. This is a single player and co-op game, thus why they do not require you to be in a party of 4 like some online games would if MP was the only big focus. I agree with I think is the majority of forum posters here in that MP is def. the more focuses aspect of DD, but single player should not be ignored.

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Are you playing on easy mode, Mages are extremely smart on Insane not to mention fairly decent on hard, They always step out of the auras for me and just heal away. Magic missle does so little damage that you would have to have 3 of them hitting one single orc on insane to maybe kill it while a mage heals it.


Maybe i got the Down Syndrome Brigade of mages, i dunno man. I just know i only see mages avoid traps when the defenses are too close to thier spawns. Otherwise they just roam into everything haha

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The nerfs were justified, but not the degree and level they were at. Later today they're buffing Squire DPS as well as the Huntress' pierce shot.

The nerf was too great and many players had the right to complain.


Edit: Here's a list of the patch notes coming in.

- Fixed Private Match joining bug. Temporary workaround for 7.06: If you are experiencing issues joining a friends match or friend joining yours, toggle the Show/Hide Match button in the pause menu.

-Increased Squire Tower DPS by 30% from 7.06 (sorry about the over-nerf folks -- some reduction was necessary but that was too much)

-Increased Squire Harpoon, Bowling Ball, & Slicer HP ramps by 25%

-Increased Huntress Piercing Shot Damage Ramp by 15%

-Increased repair speed vs Tower HP (higher HP towers will now repair significantly faster than before, as exponential falloff is applied to the repair time)

-Slice & Dice Tower Z-check will only ignore stuff well above it, not below it (so it'll once again chop goblins and such approaching from below)

-Reduced Kobold explosion AoE to pre-7.06 value


Basiclly they still will suffer a 40% damage debuff, instead of the, what like 70% it was at. i dont remeber all the debuffs, but it will still be well below apprentice dps. as it should.

Though i just now noticed the 24% HP boost to squire towers, thats awsome. More health!

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the buff they are attempting to put in place after the attack rate debuff is only going to get people pissed off...
you are making a squire a 1 man army that is unable to team up with other characters because he has nothing to offer that other characters do not have...

high health tower? : mage has shields that half half the health but they only cost 1 DU
high dps towers? : mage towers can top that too
knockback on towers? : oh gee didnt they do an attack rate nerf? nerfing the amounts of knockback it does? and also limiting the knockbacks to 6 monsters max? well then the knockback is neglectable...
piercing towers? : without attack rate they are innacurate as hell and sloooow... mage towers are faster and more accurate...

so what does a squire have to offer then? :S
well I know! he can respec into dps stats and tank the ninja's! :D
YAY I found a use for the squire! :D *insert sarcasm here*

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Squires have/had: great dps, great tanking ability, the ability to heal to full in 2-3 secs, amazing towers that could tank and dps any part of the map you currently werent in, not to mention a great ability that doesnt even need points in to make it awesome. They fixed a bit of that like the self healing and nerfed enrage, but they still have it great.

Huntress' piercing shot is amazing, which they did nerf, so im not sure where its at now, but huntress traps arent amazing without points being invested into it plus the trap "HP" so you dont have to babysit them every 20 secs.

Monks auras make them crucial but they are an all around utility class who can hold their ground with the support of heal/strength aura but theyre best quality is their multiplicative ability towards towers and heroes. 4 heroes(within range) increases your hero boost efficiency and output x4.

Apprentice I feel is getting where it needs and a lot of the people who make the claim "oh its not that great, still gonna go to my squire" say that simply because squire is/was OP at the time. Harpoons could mow down lines of wyvren at 2k dps with around 100 tower damage, whereas arcane towers were rocking 500dps(AT THE TIME) with the same 100 tower damage. Now arcane towers do about 3-4x as much dps, but they dont pierce multiple targets, however cost less in DU and have faster projectiles and tracking. Thats called a tradeoff, and a balanced one at that.

The reason for harpoons latest nerf was because it still > auras, traps, and arcane/lightning/fire towers in a narrow path situation where 1 harpoon turret supported with a blockade could have 1 path on lockdown with little to no maintenance. Lightning towers seem to be REALLY underpowered partially due to range(which is sched to be buffed) but also because if its initial target dies, it cuts its cast short. So if it targets a skeleton or a mob at like 200 hp. Its a waste of a cast. Sometimes it seems like the cast persists after death for an extra second or so, but still never really utilizes its full potential. Ironically enough, its best dps uptime was when it was targeting lightning immune mob who couldnt die so its full cast time was usually achieved, which has now been fixed and therefore nerfed for lightning towers.

Another good example of squires op towers is the bowling ball turret placed at the top of stairs. 2 BB turrets at the top of the inner stairs near the lone crystal on ramparts will have those stairs on lockdown which is a feat 3 fireball towers could not accomplish. Obviously youll still want to put a magic/spike blockade or 2 to stop an occasional kobold making a run through though.

Lets not forget squires dont have to worry about ANY resistances whatsoever, which is another huge + in my book. You can put a bb turret up on the walls on summit weeding out many of the guys before they get to your defenses(plus the knock back) whereas if you put up an app tower, a good portion of them wont even take damage.

Because their towers dont suffer from resistances, it allows the squire to pick up a good weapon with poison on it(rare resist compared to fire/lightning) and stack a bunch of invest points into only increasing the poison increasing the squires dps even more for things like ogres. Oh yeah, making it not needed to invest points into hero damage at all btw. My squire with 0 pts into hero damage(24 from eq. though) does 9k dps with an epic poison sword I got on medium diff. which started with a base of I think 124 and 22 upgrades.

The sheer fact is that majority of people play squire and with quotes like "...apprentice is still lacking, so I think ill stick to my squire," not to mention people admitting it with quotes like "stop nerfing the squire and just buff the other classes" only proves that there is an imbalance in the first place. So why buff all the classes to make the game EZ MODE, instead of nerfing the class that has it EZ mode in nearly every situation.

As for ANTI AIR, I have had no problems with either bumper towers hitting air, OR placing a harpoon turret intelligently.
Dont get me wrong, the latest nerf to squire towers was too much, as my harpoon turrets went from doing 2.1k dps to 1.2k but squires should not have it made in every role. There has to be a sacrifice somewhere down the line, whether it be by choice of stat allocation, or simply a class limitation like the apps HP. Better not see anybody suggest hero speed is a squires tradeoff either, as it can easily be fixed with the few points granted by items and is no where near the tradeoffs the other classes have.

I think:
-squire towers AoE should be GREATLY reduced, forcing squires to choose between investing greatly into tower aoe, and therefore less into 1 of the hero stat/abilities or having towers which cant cover so much ground.
-The damage should be put back to what it was though but the nerf to bb and harpoons breaking sooner is still well deserved and needs to stay.
-Spiked Blockades should also be taken to 2 DU. But to balance out the fact that spiked blockade does damage AND twice the HP(less liability of being gibbed from a line of loose kobolds) give the magic blockade a minimal heal over time if it takes no damage for 5 secs(3% every second after 5 secs of no damage therefore 30 secs total to heal from 25-100% so long as it doesnt take damage). Also gives the small benefit of not having to heal them during build phase as well.
-Something needs to be done about absurd element damage on weapons, biggest "abusers" being squires.

Also, theres a reason youre allowed to switch heroes during build phase and also a bind for drop all mana now, this game can easily be soloable BUT is not designed to be solod by 1 CLASS; so as long as you invest the time in the other classes, which the game IS clearly designed for, you should have no problems.

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the buff they are attempting to put in place after the attack rate debuff is only going to get people pissed off...
you are making a squire a 1 man army that is unable to team up with other characters because he has nothing to offer that other characters do not have...

high health tower? : mage has shields that half half the health but they only cost 1 DU
high dps towers? : mage towers can top that too
knockback on towers? : oh gee didnt they do an attack rate nerf? nerfing the amounts of knockback it does? and also limiting the knockbacks to 6 monsters max? well then the knockback is neglectable...
piercing towers? : without attack rate they are innacurate as hell and sloooow... mage towers are faster and more accurate...

so what does a squire have to offer then? :S
well I know! he can respec into dps stats and tank the ninja's! :D
YAY I found a use for the squire! :D *insert sarcasm here*


squire WAS a 1 man army, pre balance ;P

And 13k HP spike walls cost like what 2DU? the apprentice walls never get that high and if your puttin all your points into tower health on an apprentice, your hurting yourself elsewhere.

No one can out defend a Squire. i still value thier defense over anyone else when it comes to keeping thigns away form the core

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Squires have/had: great dps, great tanking ability, the ability to heal to full in 2-3 secs, amazing towers that could tank and dps any part of the map you currently werent in, not to mention a great ability that doesnt even need points in to make it awesome. They fixed a bit of that like the self healing and nerfed enrage, but they still have it great.

Huntress' piercing shot is amazing, which they did nerf, so im not sure where its at now, but huntress traps arent amazing without points being invested into it plus the trap "HP" so you dont have to babysit them every 20 secs.

Monks auras make them crucial but they are an all around utility class who can hold their ground with the support of heal/strength aura but theyre best quality is their multiplicative ability towards towers and heroes. 4 heroes(within range) increases your hero boost efficiency and output x4.

Apprentice I feel is getting where it needs and a lot of the people who make the claim "oh its not that great, still gonna go to my squire" say that simply because squire is/was OP at the time. Harpoons could mow down lines of wyvren at 2k dps with around 100 tower damage, whereas arcane towers were rocking 500dps(AT THE TIME) with the same 100 tower damage. Now arcane towers do about 3-4x as much dps, but they dont pierce multiple targets, however cost less in DU and have faster projectiles and tracking. Thats called a tradeoff, and a balanced one at that.

The reason for harpoons latest nerf was because it still > auras, traps, and arcane/lightning/fire towers in a narrow path situation where 1 harpoon turret supported with a blockade could have 1 path on lockdown with little to no maintenance. Lightning towers seem to be REALLY underpowered partially due to range(which is sched to be buffed) but also because if its initial target dies, it cuts its cast short. So if it targets a skeleton or a mob at like 200 hp. Its a waste of a cast. Sometimes it seems like the cast persists after death for an extra second or so, but still never really utilizes its full potential. Ironically enough, its best dps uptime was when it was targeting lightning immune mob who couldnt die so its full cast time was usually achieved, which has now been fixed and therefore nerfed for lightning towers.

Another good example of squires op towers is the bowling ball turret placed at the top of stairs. 2 BB turrets at the top of the inner stairs near the lone crystal on ramparts will have those stairs on lockdown which is a feat 3 fireball towers could not accomplish. Obviously youll still want to put a magic/spike blockade or 2 to stop an occasional kobold making a run through though.

Lets not forget squires dont have to worry about ANY resistances whatsoever, which is another huge + in my book. You can put a bb turret up on the walls on summit weeding out many of the guys before they get to your defenses(plus the knock back) whereas if you put up an app tower, a good portion of them wont even take damage.

Because their towers dont suffer from resistances, it allows the squire to pick up a good weapon with poison on it(rare resist compared to fire/lightning) and stack a bunch of invest points into only increasing the poison increasing the squires dps even more for things like ogres. Oh yeah, making it not needed to invest points into hero damage at all btw. My squire with 0 pts into hero damage(24 from eq. though) does 9k dps with an epic poison sword I got on medium diff. which started with a base of I think 124 and 22 upgrades.

The sheer fact is that majority of people play squire and with quotes like "...apprentice is still lacking, so I think ill stick to my squire," not to mention people admitting it with quotes like "stop nerfing the squire and just buff the other classes" only proves that there is an imbalance in the first place. So why buff all the classes to make the game EZ MODE, instead of nerfing the class that has it EZ mode in nearly every situation.

As for ANTI AIR, I have had no problems with either bumper towers hitting air, OR placing a harpoon turret intelligently.
Dont get me wrong, the latest nerf to squire towers was too much, as my harpoon turrets went from doing 2.1k dps to 1.2k but squires should not have it made in every role. There has to be a sacrifice somewhere down the line, whether it be by choice of stat allocation, or simply a class limitation like the apps HP. Better not see anybody suggest hero speed is a squires tradeoff either, as it can easily be fixed with the few points granted by items and is no where near the tradeoffs the other classes have.

I think:
-squire towers AoE should be GREATLY reduced, forcing squires to choose between investing greatly into tower aoe, and therefore less into 1 of the hero stat/abilities or having towers which cant cover so much ground.
-The damage should be put back to what it was though but the nerf to bb and harpoons breaking sooner is still well deserved and needs to stay.
-Spiked Blockades should also be taken to 2 DU. But to balance out the fact that spiked blockade does damage AND twice the HP(less liability of being gibbed from a line of loose kobolds) give the magic blockade a minimal heal over time if it takes no damage for 5 secs(3% every second after 5 secs of no damage therefore 30 secs total to heal from 25-100% so long as it doesnt take damage). Also gives the small benefit of not having to heal them during build phase as well.
-Something needs to be done about absurd element damage on weapons, biggest "abusers" being squires.

Also, theres a reason youre allowed to switch heroes during build phase and also a bind for drop all mana now, this game can easily be soloable BUT is not designed to be solod by 1 CLASS; so as long as you invest the time in the other classes, which the game IS clearly designed for, you should have no problems.


Just a quick note. You say huntress traps are only good if you put points in them. Derp. thats obvious haha.

Sorry had to say it. But yeah my trap huntress has 39 charges on rank 1 proxys and its wonderful.

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squire WAS a 1 man army, pre balance ;P

And 13k HP spike walls cost like what 2DU? the apprentice walls never get that high and if your puttin all your points into tower health on an apprentice, your hurting yourself elsewhere.

No one can out defend a Squire. i still value thier defense over anyone else when it comes to keeping thigns away form the core

spike walls are 3DU
with the same hp increase stats I have on my squire and mage.. my mage has about half the health on his walls...

apprentice walls are 1 DU

also with repairing pets you can repair all walls at the same time... much faster... but with the squire walls repairing takes ages :)
sorry but you havnt convinced me that squire walls are better yet

also dont forget that apprentice walls remove resistances...

edit:

and I agree that traps are good... really good...
every class but the squire right now has any addition to the game

my sugestion is not to increase damage... heck they can nerf it all they like!...
I want more attack rate or more knockback! its defence they need! not freaking damage...

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anyways guys ima head off the forums for a bit, go eat and enjoy the day a little. Ill be back in an hour or so to check up on the patch.

Keep discussing all you want though, ill jump in when im back.

=]

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There was no such thing as a pre-balance, it's a pre-nerf =. =

He was never truly a 1 man army, When you get to the later stages squire is your bread and butter, but you need monk, huntress not really App, to support his towers for maximum potiential.

It's fine to accept it as it is you know why? Because we can use App for our bread and butter now and have monk and huntress support him instead, while it's our squire's turn to sit on the side line.

They were overnerfed not balanced, they needed a nerf but not a 50% nerf on their only towers which could support their other towers effectively, it's in no way balanced in reality they just destroyed his ability to solo rather than make it so he doesn't just need two towers to solo everything because they compensated it's flaws but made use of it's strengths it had, instead they weakened it's strengths but kept the flaws.

It's like taking back the buff on the attack speed on app towers but leaving the damage the same only because of the extent of this "balance" (nerf).

I'm done I'm not bothered to express my thoughts anymore because they're already rebuffing the towers, but in now way was this "NERF" justifed, "A NERF" was justified but not this "BALANCE"

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I appreciate that a lot of people are defending the viewpoint of the devs's but people should just realise that witht he current patch (yes even 7.06b) squires are no longer required within teamed games... unlike before where I had to use EVERY character on summit insane to stand a slight chance against the boss...

right now its just the same setup but with more apprentice stuff since I cant use the crap a squire can build properly anymore>.>

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Then you arent doing it right as you arent taking advantage of a clearly squire favored map. That back area alone is just a perfect setup for 2 BB turrets to cover the U turns on each side, with a blockade and both BB turrets would safely be out of harms way of ogres/archers/necros(1 way up on the ramp, and the other at top of stairs or lip of lava grate). Also, when ogres spawn, will give app/hunters the best spot to stand above the ogres shooting them from above. So now your anti air can solely focus on air, in which case you wont need as many to begin with now. Im not usually a fan of splitting my defenses up so much, but summit with 4 people, that is definitely manageable.

I would say that map is favored for apps, if lightning towers worked properly, not to mention didnt get shot by electric immune archers/necros and ogres attacking WELL above their Z axis(which needs to be fixed for that level as its a pain in the *** to put towers on the outer edge of the back without an ogre beating on from 20ft below. Due to these problems, that back area is a pain for apps and only viable strat ive gotten to work is to pool them all at the top by the lava grates for all my towers including some of my AA to shoot em all, which again, is a hassle cause necros down the stairs never get killed cause lightning towers suck due to gameplay mechs.

Also, you are wrong and completely bias in your comparison of the 2 barricades. Magical is 1/3 the DU, but about half the hp(this patch), doesnt do damage, and nearly HALF the size, meaning you need to make 2 to cover where 1 spiked can cover. Also means you have to upgrade both and heal both when they are both hit by kobolds, cleaves, fireballs from necros and ogres, and ogre smashes. Both definitely have their purposes and I utilize both in the appropriate places, you should probably learn to do the same.

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