Is the Summoner making a comeback?

Problem was that minions weren't adequate replacements for existing towers. They were on-average weaker than anything that cost the same amount of DU.

That's a simple balancing issue. All they would have to do there is either up the damage scaling for each minion or lower the DU cost for each minion. Using MU made even a lvl 1 Summoner beneficial (albeit slightly) to any build that had no summoner. Which also means any build without a Summoner was ultimately lacking compared to any build with one. That is broken. No character should be beneficial under every circumstance in the game.

Using MU made even a lvl 1 Summoner beneficial (albeit slightly) to any build that had no summoner. Which also means any build without a Summoner was ultimately lacking compared to any build with one. That is broken.

Oh agreed. I've been saying that since the summoner came out.

I think you could fix the summoner balance issue with 1 simple change. Make summoned minions not eligible for buff beams.

There's a good chance that our DD1 DLC heroes will make a triumphant return in DD2, but we do not have any solid information or plans at the moment.

I completely agree that summoners did broke balance in game. Couple days after i got my summoner i could beat aquanos nm hc mm surv with four afk toons, just repaired between waves and hit ready. First it was kinda cool but sadly not long after that i lost interest to play dd.

So if summoner is reintroduced to dd2 it will need some serious re-balancing. Making summoner to use DU and maybe to be able to spawn unit or two from its own MU pool could do the trick.

I think you could fix the summoner balance issue with 1 simple change. Make summoned minions not eligible for buff beams.

No. This isn't the solution.

Buff beams only exacerbated a problem that already existed.

Wow. Didnt realize there were so many ill feelings towards the summoner. Personally, I think it is a great character. I agree that it does make things a bit easier with the extra MU that comes with it but it is not a game breaker. It is not possible for a single character to "break the game" because nothing requires any of us to use any specific character. I think that is one of the greatest things about DD is that it is pretty versatile. Many different characters to use with many different ways to build.

If someone decides not to use it or ult armor for instance, they can use something else. If there are some new players that need to take advantage of the extra towers with MU to beat particular levels, then it is available to them.

I would be glad to see them all again in DD2.

If someone decides not to use it or ult armor for instance, they can use something else. If there are some new players that need to take advantage of the extra towers with MU to beat particular levels, then it is available to them.

And...Missing the point entirely.

No. This isn't the solution.

Buff beams only exacerbated a problem that already existed.

We may be talking about different things. To me summoners broke the balance between other classes by introducing the minion wall. Potentially self healing, damage inflicting, sharken charge proof wall. No other wall in the game heals itself, can cause damage at range, and can't be moved by sharken. That to me is the basic problem. Squire walls, EV walls, Apprentice walls just can't compare.

Minions outside of a buff beam to double their dps, hp, and resistances would be much easier to balance.

Wow. Didnt realize there were so many ill feelings towards the summoner. Personally, I think it is a great character. I agree that it does make things a bit easier with the extra MU that comes with it but it is not a game breaker. It is not possible for a single character to "break the game" because nothing requires any of us to use any specific character. I think that is one of the greatest things about DD is that it is pretty versatile. Many different characters to use with many different ways to build.

If someone decides not to use it or ult armor for instance, they can use something else. If there are some new players that need to take advantage of the extra towers with MU to beat particular levels, then it is available to them.

I would be glad to see them all again in DD2.

Don't misunderstand, I have a summoner (or 4) and it's a good character. But, an honest assessment would be that the summoner is overpowered compared to the other classes. How many guides and builds are out there now that list your required builders as summoner, ev, monk, traptress. Apprentice towers are pretty accepted as obsolete, squires get a harpoon occasionally, but that's it.

Early game I don't think it makes much difference. Nightmare to end game content, summoner is huge.

( For example, I'm trying to think how I would approach building akatiki without minions and not having much luck.)

We may be talking about different things. To me summoners broke the balance between other classes by introducing the minion wall. Potentially self healing, damage inflicting, sharken charge proof wall. No other wall in the game heals itself, can cause damage at range, and can't be moved by sharken. That to me is the basic problem. Squire walls, EV walls, Apprentice walls just can't compare.

Like I said. The Buff Beam exacerbates (or exaggerates, enhances, compounds, multiplies) the problem. But is itself not the problem. Buff Beam + Minions should not have special rules.

[quote]Minions outside of a buff beam to double their dps, hp, and resistances would be much easier to balance.[/QUOTE]

I do not understand this line.

[QUOTE=ddace;991021]It is not possible for a single character to "break the game" because nothing requires any of us to use any specific character.

( For example, I'm trying to think how I would approach building akatiki without minions and not having much luck.)[/QUOTE]

Or think of it this way:
Take any build. Add a level 1 summoner. Build is instantly better.
And nothing in the existing build suffered. Same number of harpoons, traps, auras, fireball turrets as you had before, but now you have minions too.

Like I said. The Buff Beam exacerbates (or exaggerates, enhances, compounds, multiplies) the problem. But is itself not the problem. Buff Beam + Minions should not have special rules.

[quote]
Minions outside of a buff beam to double their dps, hp, and resistances would be much easier to balance.

I do not understand this line.
[/quote]

Minions get synergy with buff beams, so that line of archers that everyone uses for walls in end game only works as a wall because the buff beam makes them sturdy enough to take hits from ogres and trash. Take the buff beam away and your archer wall would crumble before wave 20. Even fairly tough minions+buff beam from a 5k summoner require player maintenance when dealing with wave 20+ ogres. And I don't see any problem with making a special rule for minions + buff beams.. they are a special tower type already... Without the buff beam allowing archers to be a wall, minions are just a new dps tower..easy to balance against existing tower dps.

Without the buff beam allowing archers to be a wall, minions are just a new dps tower..easy to balance against existing tower dps.

Again, this is still a problem of "adding archers" doesn't also mean "removing something else."

If you had to remove some other tower to make room for the archer I don't think you'd find this to be a problem.

Take a stab at it sometime: see if a minion wall works when your total MU+DU used equals the amount of DU available on the map. Hell, I'll even give you a discount of 1 on every minion (that is, count a 3 MU minion as being 2 DU).

Again, this is still a problem of "adding archers" doesn't also mean "removing something else."

If you had to remove some other tower to make room for the archer I don't think you'd find this to be a problem.

Take a stab at it sometime: see if a minion wall works when your total MU+DU used equals the amount of DU available on the map. Hell, I'll even give you a discount of 1 on every minion (that is, count a 3 MU minion as being 2 DU).

I have been working slowly on the Mythical RTS achievement. (That's where you have to complete all the campaign maps with only minions for damage. ) I've completed up through Hall of Court, with almost no DU used. (My summoner might be overpowered for the maps though.)

Unfortunately, these changes to the game didn't happen in a vacuum. Once summoners were added, maps developed afterwards assume minion use and have rather low DU allocations. So, attempting a recent map without minions might not even be viable.
(Akatiki jungle in particular is tight) Other developments in nightmare also added du requirements to the maps that didn't exist before. You get things like Djinn, Shaken that require gas traps to stun.. or spiders, ogre copters that get to drop in behind your defense lanes... these things required extra DU for towers to deal with these specific mobs. Adding MU / Minions might have been an easier solution than rebalancing the DU allocations for all the prior maps once nightmare was finished.

Summoners do have another trade off for minions, they sacrificed personal character dps as well.

Once summoners were added, maps developed afterwards assume minion use and have rather low DU allocations.

Which TBH, is stupid. The summoner is a completely separate DLC that people may not own. By lowering the DU "because the summoner exists" makes the maps...well...

[quote]So, attempting a recent map without minions might not even be viable.[/quote]

Which TBH, is stupid. The summoner is a completely separate DLC that people may not own. By lowering the DU "because the summoner exists" makes the maps...well...

The summoner is not necessary though for the original maps. So if a person just owns the base game without any DLC, then they have everything they need to beat all non DLC maps.

DLC is just designed to provide more ways for people to enjoy the game and to continue in their progression. So any new characters released after the base game are designed with the harder DLC maps and NM mode in mind instead of just the original maps. So yes they are over powered compared to the original characters but it does make it easier for some to break in NM.

So if there is a summoner for DD2 then maybe it should be released later on as a DLC instead of at the very beginning just like it was in DD1.

The summoner is not necessary though for the original maps. So if a person just owns the base game without any DLC, then they have everything they need to beat all non DLC maps.

Summoner DLC does not equal Map DLC.
Akatiki jungle, IIRC, was a free map.

Summoner DLC does not equal Map DLC.
Akatiki jungle, IIRC, was a free map.

I agree and it can be beaten without using a summoner.

The Summoner was fun to play with in DD1 and as for DD2, right now we've only got the 4 main heroes. What did you like most about the Summoner?

The Summoner. I loved the Summoner. What did I love about him? Well let's see..

1. His appearance

• 
  
• I love the mysterious/hooded figure that just screams evil mastermind without being a cheesy generic villain.
  

2. His mysterious history and lore

• 
  
• As stated above, it's just perfect for my image of a perfect character.
  

3. His skills

• 
  
• His Overlord/Phase Shift mode was beautiful, the ability to heal and repair without being damaged was invaluable
  amongst the other heroes and kept my crystal from being destroyed many a time.
  
• His Flash Heal was also amazing, for when you don't have time to repair all those near broken defenses yet you can't
  allow them to fall just yet, this was beyond perfect.
  
• His summons, however, were obviously his best asset. The ability to send his mobile support from one door to another to
  help an ally in need, or stop enemies from progessing down a lane that's had it's defenses broken, or to stop an ogre
  from destroying everything. Minions were amazing.
  
• Hovering. There's nothing to say here aside from it's extremely useful and compliments the dual pets perfectly.
  

4. Two pets

• 
  
• I loved the ability to have two pets as well, it's true that the Summoner couldn't use weapons and that originally made
  me dislike him because the class is so strategic but there are a lot of people who thoroughly enjoy that type of play,
  but for those who don't enjoy just sitting there and doing absolutely nothing besides repairing/upgrading and
  occasionally moving a minion or two, the pets gave you the ability to fight yourself and feel like you're contributing
  thus allowing the class to be played by more diverse players.
  

[WARNING: OPINIONATED RANT INCOMING]
Many people claim the Summoner was overpowered and broke the balance between classes, but the truth is, in order to play as the Summoner you have to actually strategize instead of being one of the common "Ugh me strong. Me fight. Me kill." type people, the Summoner was only overpowered when the person playing him understood how they needed to play and what to place where, not just anyone can use him and still be called overpowered. Though isn't that the same for all classes? I could claim that the Squire and Wizard were overpowered all day due to how some people use them, but again, if you don't know how to use the class you're playing as then you're weak.

Typically claiming a class is overpowered means that you're just not as good with your class as they are with theirs. It's a common power-struggle through all claims with a group of people claiming one class is overpowered and needs to be nerfed, so then when they nerf it they claim another class is overpowered and the cycle continues until a group claims that a class is too weak, so they strengthen that class, well then the other classes are too weak so they strengthen the other classes one by one until guess what? They need to be nerfed again. If you think a class if overpowered then don't play with them in your match, kick them, or leave yourself; Or if you want to be overpowered yourself then play as them and see if you can handle their gameplay, and work it as good as them. But to play the Summoner correctly I hope you're good at multitasking.



Sorry I went off on a bit of a rant there, my apologies. Although everything I stated was true..
..BACK TO THE TOPIC!

Summoner was amazing and needs to be added in DD2, I don't care if he has to be nerfed, I never played him to be overpowered, I played as him because the ability to control my defenses and protect everything across the board was my perfect playing style. Of course, I know a lot of people agree with me and would be very disappointed for it not to be in. Honestly, even if everything else in the game was free I'd still pay to have him.



~ Just my thoughts, good day to you.

who is the summoner and how do you get him?(I use an xbox)

It's a DLC on PC. Not sure whether it is available for XBox.

It's a DLC on PC. Not sure whether it is available for XBox.

The summoner is not available on consoles.

[WARNING: OPINIONATED RANT INCOMING]
Many people claim the Summoner was overpowered and broke the balance between classes, but the truth is, in order to play as the Summoner you have to actually strategize instead of being one of the common "Ugh me strong. Me fight. Me kill." type people, the Summoner was only overpowered when the person playing him understood how they needed to play and what to place where, not just anyone can use him and still be called overpowered. Though isn't that the same for all classes? I could claim that the Squire and Wizard were overpowered all day due to how some people use them, but again, if you don't know how to use the class you're playing as then you're weak.

Typically claiming a class is overpowered means that you're just not as good with your class as they are with theirs. It's a common power-struggle through all claims with a group of people claiming one class is overpowered and needs to be nerfed, so then when they nerf it they claim another class is overpowered

How did you play the summoner? In every non challenge map here is how I played the summoner. I put all my auras towers and traps down. Then I got on my ev and threw the beams down where I need them. Then I dumped 3ish archers a spider and a mage near the beam. Then I positioned them and tried to see if I could squeeze threw each minion. Now turn on over lord and afk or repair if its somehow needed. Sometimes switch to my dps character. They made their own walls that repaired themselves that were immune to sharken. The walls take no du away either.

Someone else said something like " At a certain point you can only improve your build by adding a summoner if you don't have one." and I agree. To me that is the absolute definition of over powered something so good you handicap yourself by not having it in a serious way. You seem to mix forum whining with balance. Perfect balance isn't possible with out fps style everyone gets the same exact stats / gun. So you need to either tweak stuff to get closer to perfect balancing or you throw your hands up and let the kings rule. Although by being able to be any character at the start of every wave it sort of evens itself it. You have one of every builder so one being more powerful is not a problem if the others are still needed. The problem comes when the summoner is so powerful it feels absolutely required and hinders the balancing of a maps resources.

Salve Trendy Team,

i think so too, the Summoner was the best class, makes a lot of fun to build with him. It's a very importent class for the game.
This class fixed me on my PC.
;)

I hope we see the Summoner soon after DD2 release.

PS: DD RULEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(sry 4 my bad engl.)

Greetings from Bavaria

I think that if Trendy does bring back the summoner in a similar fashion to his DD1 playstyle, he should have much more focus on moving his towers. That's something that went wrong with him in DD1, he just built and left minions alone.

From what I've seen of DD2 so far, Summoner has a great chance to stand out and cooperate with his allies without being op. DD2 seems to have more emphasis on upgrading towers over building towers, so there won't be archer minion spam everywhere anymore. I have high hopes for summoner.

Anyone think Demoness could appear with a whole moveset to herself?