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I believe there are a few answers to this problem. 1 player per account, if you want to play with your friends, make them an account. Secondly, split gear evenly, and on map finishing gear (special gear guaranteed on some bosses) make it non tradeable. As for experience, I wouldn't worry about splitting that. Imo just make a lot of game non trade able.

I personally played with some buddies the first time I played the game, and it was fun.

but when we all left and played alone, my friends would hook up 3 controllers and just play one character while collecting the loot of 4 people. That is dumb, could you imagine that in other games or in life? I am collecting 4 paychecks because I have 3 extra controller.

This may be a lot of coding, but another option is an activity report. You get experience and armor based on the activity you brought to the game. That way powerleveling is of the past (I personally hate power leveling, it makes my level 90 feel useless because you could just join a game and eat a cheeseburger, getting 7-10 levels a wave). It would also make farming for gear worth it, because if you get carried through a map you don't get gear from it. Sure it may be tricky to figure out support classes and tower classes would always have higher activity than dps classes, but it's just an idea.

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The problem in DD1 would be the use of split screen for afk characters. Whether that's controllers or emulators. This is only a problem due to balance issues with the game. If a 4 player session is so easy that 1 player can carry 3 others being afk, the problem is not support of split screen. The problem is inadequate difficulty adjustments for the extra players.

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If a 4 player session is so easy that 1 player can carry 3 others being afk, the problem is not support of split screen. The problem is inadequate difficulty adjustments for the extra players.


I'd like to point out that the difficulty in DD1, while messed up, was not messed up as you're implying.

The actual problem was that Nightmare was too hard so people would have to 1+3afk on an easier map+difficulty (one they were overpowered for) in an attempt to get loot drops that were sufficiently better than what they already had.

It wasn't that the extra player math was fudged poorly and was too easy, but rather people had to AFK an easier setup because the intended next-map/difficulty was too hard.*

*See also: Endless Spires being the break-in point for Nightmare because it was the easiest map. 6 ogres at once on Deeper Well without Myth just kills you.

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I believe there are a few answers to this problem. 1 player per account, if you want to play with your friends, make them an account. Secondly, split gear evenly, and on map finishing gear (special gear guaranteed on some bosses) make it non tradeable. As for experience, I wouldn't worry about splitting that. Imo just make a lot of game non trade able.

I personally played with some buddies the first time I played the game, and it was fun.

but when we all left and played alone, my friends would hook up 3 controllers and just play one character while collecting the loot of 4 people. That is dumb, could you imagine that in other games or in life? I am collecting 4 paychecks because I have 3 extra controller.

This may be a lot of coding, but another option is an activity report. You get experience and armor based on the activity you brought to the game. That way powerleveling is of the past (I personally hate power leveling, it makes my level 90 feel useless because you could just join a game and eat a cheeseburger, getting 7-10 levels a wave). It would also make farming for gear worth it, because if you get carried through a map you don't get gear from it. Sure it may be tricky to figure out support classes and tower classes would always have higher activity than dps classes, but it's just an idea.


I like the idea of some loot being non tradeable however the activity report could be bad like you said with a main 2 main dps and 2 towers builders/supporters...... it's going to be a very difficult fix no matter how you do it.

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I like the idea of some loot being non tradeable however the activity report could be bad like you said with a main 2 main dps and 2 towers builders/supporters...... it's going to be a very difficult fix no matter how you do it.


In addition to this it adds a whole new layer of problems to the mix. If your rewards/drops/XP are related to your activity level then you are encouraging selfish play rather than coop. What towers give me the most XP, which monsters give me the highest return on my efforts.

And don't forget that while you and I are slugging it out with 2 other Huntresses spamming piercing shots on mobs cuz that's the current exploit on maximizing activity levels, ole Johnny-4-computer is mopping up with 100% activity level wave after wave...

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Split-screen is a necessity for DD2 given the first game set the standard with 4-player s/s, even for PC's -- a rarity. Whether the game accommodates two (or more) players on one PC may well decide me jumping on board for the sequel.

As for the stats / loot sharing; simply have an option to toggle it on / off. 'Problem': solve.

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This may be a lot of coding, but another option is an activity report. You get experience and armor based on the activity you brought to the game. That way powerleveling is of the past (I personally hate power leveling, it makes my level 90 feel useless because you could just join a game and eat a cheeseburger, getting 7-10 levels a wave). It would also make farming for gear worth it, because if you get carried through a map you don't get gear from it. Sure it may be tricky to figure out support classes and tower classes would always have higher activity than dps classes, but it's just an idea.


Nope, it isn't that big deal. Actually you get xp only after finishing a wave, correct?
So implement a feature that you'll get it only if you did some damage (either with hero or with towers) or repaired something, upgraded and so on.. Implementing a core functionality won't be that tricky, I guess.

Activity report fine, but don't let it affect the drops. Only the given xp.

My idea: you have basically three different options how much xp you earn after a wave.
Let's say there is always a total amount of x exp every player can earn each wave.


a) You did neither tower damage, placed not a single tower/trap/aura/whatever, did no hero damage. Then you will get only a little xp bonus at the end of the wave (e.g. 25% of x).

b) You did either tower/hero damage or upgrade/repair. Then you will get like 50-75% of x (the maximum XP).

c) You did hero damage/tower damage, repaired and/or upgraded so you will get the full amount of x.

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I'd like to point out that the difficulty in DD1, while messed up, was not messed up as you're implying.

The actual problem was that Nightmare was too hard so people would have to 1+3afk on an easier map+difficulty (one they were overpowered for) in an attempt to get loot drops that were sufficiently better than what they already had.

It wasn't that the extra player math was fudged poorly and was too easy, but rather people had to AFK an easier setup because the intended next-map/difficulty was too hard.*

*See also: Endless Spires being the break-in point for Nightmare because it was the easiest map. 6 ogres at once on Deeper Well without Myth just kills you.


I disagree. I was playing when nightmare was introduced. We had godly gear farmed from survivals that was good enough to start nightmare with. The endless spires deal was for players trying to catch up and skip the extended farming in insane survivals for godly gear. I certainly agree that the progression curve in DD1 was weird and likely broken at times. But, that's a question of difficulty and gear progression from easy->hard->insane->nightmare. If nightmare was so hard, why would people be able to do 1+3afk? that's the issue to me. That +3afk should make the game session hard enough that it takes more than 1 person to complete the map. I mostly see splitscreen used in nightmare for gear farming and powerleveling. Browsing the forums I see guides for pet farming with 3 afks, gear farming king's game with 3 afks, akatiki weapons with 3 afks, etc.

Split screen for actual players I have no issue with. I've played split screen with kids at times, it's fun. Using split screen to bring in 3 afk characters via controller emulator is probably not good for the game. Now, is it enough of a problem to specifically try and disable? I doubt it. If anyone wants to login multiple players to a game for farming, they can use a laptop, extra pc, virtual machines, etc.. just run multiple copies of the game.

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[quote] I was playing when nightmare was introduced.[/quote]

So was I. And I was constantly reminded that "its still a work in progress, it will be better when all of the shard maps are out." Which was bollocks.

By the time all of the shard DLCs were out the gear and progression was broken beyond repair due to the bug that resulted in the entire idea of Myth gear in the first place. Because Trendy didn't want to punish the people who'd exploited the bug in the first place...soooo the balance equasions were tweaked because those people found the game too easy.

I should know. I was active on the forums when it happened.

was for players trying to catch up and skip the extended farming in insane survivals for godly gear.


Survival farming was boring and time consuming. And fraught with peril. "OH NOE! I LOST A PACKET TO THE STEAM VAC SERVERS! *quit to main menu*"

I still did some, but I never once got a Myth drop.

Or even really any godlies worth mentioning.

[quote]If nightmare was so hard, why would people be able to do 1+3afk? that's the issue to me.[/quote]

See above about exploiting gear drop bugs and then complaining that the game was too easy.

The people that could 1+3afk Nightmare had gear that was way way overpowered for what they were doing. It's like saying "I beat Deeper Well on Nightmare with no towers." Good for you. You were level 100 in Ult++. That map shouldn't be a challenge for you.

You seem to be conflating "progresion between tiers" and "end-tier difficulty."

[quote]akatiki weapons with 3 afks, etc.[/quote]

Please check the stat requirements for those. If it's below 1200, then something's wrong. If it's over 1700 then you're looking at someone who has the best possible gear imaginable and the map shouldn't be a challenge, no matter what handicaps they give themselves.

Try and find a guide for how to get from the ~400 in stats to ~1200.

You won't find one.

Except for Nightmare Endless Spires.

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So was I. And I was constantly reminded that "its still a work in progress, it will be better when all of the shard maps are out." Which was bollocks.

By the time all of the shard DLCs were out the gear and progression was broken beyond repair due to the bug that resulted in the entire idea of Myth gear in the first place. Because Trendy didn't want to punish the people who'd exploited the bug in the first place...soooo the balance equasions were tweaked because those people found the game too easy.


I assume you are referring to the original super loot problems with the challenge maps? That was before the DLC's started, the shard maps all dropped mythicals.



[quote]
Survival farming was boring and time consuming. And fraught with peril. "OH NOE! I LOST A PACKET TO THE STEAM VAC SERVERS! *quit to main menu*"

I still did some, but I never once got a Myth drop.

Or even really any godlies worth mentioning.
[/quote]

It was time consuming and this was before they let you advance the start wave and before they nerfed the mob counts on later waves. A dropped server connection meant stating back at wave 8. But, that's where the better loot dropped.


[quote]
The people that could 1+3afk Nightmare had gear that was way way overpowered for what they were doing. It's like saying "I beat Deeper Well on Nightmare with no towers." Good for you. You were level 100 in Ult++. That map shouldn't be a challenge for you.

You seem to be conflating "progresion between tiers" and "end-tier difficulty."
[/quote]

I think I did say that problems exist between easy->hard->insane->nightmare. But, nightmare is the end-tier difficulty.

[quote]
Please check the stat requirements for those. If it's below 1200, then something's wrong. If it's over 1700 then you're looking at someone who has the best possible gear imaginable and the map shouldn't be a challenge, no matter what handicaps they give themselves.

Try and find a guide for how to get from the ~400 in stats to ~1200.

You won't find one.

Except for Nightmare Endless Spires.[/QUOTE]

I'm actually working on a new start playthrough. I'll have to see what works when I get that far. I've already hit a progression block at The Summit with the dragon. I have to go back some levels and farm for gear upgrades.

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I assume you are referring to the original super loot problems with the challenge maps? That was before the DLC's started, the shard maps all dropped mythicals.


There were two superloot problems that were unrelated, by the way. One lasted two days, during which I didn't hear about it because it was during the time I was at work (and was before the DLC, which caused the creation of the Myth teir). The other lasted only a few hours.

My point was that because of the superloot problems people complained that the DLC maps (and Nightmare) were too easy. Because they had superloot. Thus the balance for "normal people" was completely foxed.

[quote]It was time consuming and this was before they let you advance the start wave and before they nerfed the mob counts on later waves. A dropped server connection meant stating back at wave 8. But, that's where the better loot dropped. [/quote]

Wave 8 was where the loot dropped!?
*Uproarious laughter*
I ran survive to the LAST FREAKING WAVE (that's 25 on the original campaign maps) without seeing Myths of notable quality on numerous occasions. Oh I saw Myth labels but 90% of them were crappier than all of the godlies I was still wearing (the remaining 10% were simply just worse than my other Myths).

[quote]I'm actually working on a new start playthrough. I'll have to see what works when I get that far. I've already hit a progression block at The Summit with the dragon. I have to go back some levels and farm for gear upgrades.[/QUOTE]

$100 says that you will get your face smashed on NM Deeper Well and be unable to complete it before completing a different map. Me +3 friends could only just barely survive to the last wave, whereupon the game throws 6 ogres at you. At once.

The best we did was killing 5 of them with the last one WTFmurdering the crystal because we couldn't draw aggro fast enough.

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This topic is such a headache. It always splits into two issues; farming and plvl (power leveling). This superloot thing I see above seems to be like an isolated issue that *hopefully* won't happen again. I will agree that going from insane to nm deeper well was a stretch but I managed it in about 4 hours and started to do the survival mode to get my starting set of myths.

I will say Trendy is doing a good job with making the steps between level ranges and difficulties pretty fluid so far. They still have a long way to go but each playtest so far has been better than the last in some aspects. The loot system is still being worked on and is dicey but it has come a long way since they introduced it a month or so ago. Hopefully we'll see this fluid progression stay (they are spending a lot of time checking the balance for each level) and the loot have a noticeable progression as well that isn't thwarted by this superloot bug.

Back to split screen though. Plvl + super farming... I have said it before and I'll mention it again that I think plvl should be reserved for people that have beaten the game at least once already and that splitscreeners should not be allowed to get more loot just because they want to split screen with +3afk.

It is note worth that so far in DD2 pre alpha I have noticed that if you try to play a level with +3afk you will most definitely loss. Here's why:

1) Minibosses (just ogre thus far) are as Trendy portrays them: tough. If you use crowd control combos/towers you will notice that they can be handled but their brute force, abilities, and health make it so you can't solo these guys with ease. It is a team effort of attacking and making sure you coordinate your abilities to stun these guys.
2) Every lane requires attention regardless of your stats. You can have the best tower build in the game but with the scaling difficulties of each level you will find it different than DD1. So far we see each level scaling by player level (so if you reach a certain level you can choose the next rung of difficulty for each level). I don't know if this will last but imagine it like this. You play Deeper Well at level 74 with you level 100, simple right? But now you have the option to choose Deeper Well NM for either level 74+, 78+, 84+, 92+, 100. Each difficulty gives better loot but increases the tier of the mobs and the volume of mobs slightly. So at 74+ you can see all you generally see now. Now imagine at 100 everything has armor, you have new mobs introduced and they are significantly stronger. That seems to be the idea at the moment. So, back to the point, as you get loot from each stage level you can attempt that level at an increased difficulty. With each increase you have a better payout but you also face tougher mobs. Your loot will no longer be able to carry your towers through the entire level, action is required by all players. In DD2 I know at the toughest stage levels I can't just sit on my hands even though I've received gear at that level. If I neglect to do anything in the lane I've been assigned by my teammates it will surely fall.
3) Tower Range - this is huge and a hot topic of it's own but so far towers have a set range at tier 1 and as you upgrade them the range increases. This is a good thing because now flying units won't get shot down from half way across the map and entire areas aren't covered by one trap. DU is valuable and towers can't just be placed haphazardly. Time is spent just finding the sweet spot for each tower to make sure you cover what you need to be covered. You can't just throw down a harpoon tower with 2000 range and know that it will kill all wyverns the moment they spawn.

Split screen shouldn't be a huge issue since this game actually takes active players and teamwork now. We will see how it goes in the future once solo play is added to the playtests but for now I see some major obstacles for anyone doing the +3afk farming trick.

As I stated above, I think the solution would be limit plvling to those who have already normally leveled up one hero and also eliminate split screen loot farming. Split screen players that actually have family and friends play generally will have extra loot to give them anyway or they will be sharing a hero that they have already leveled up with. Plus plvling doesn't break the game as fast as +3afk farming does with the massive loot gains. A plvl noob will continue to be a noob regardless what level they attain by plvling.

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Wave 8 was where the loot dropped!?
*Uproarious laughter*
I ran survive to the LAST FREAKING WAVE (that's 25 on the original campaign maps) without seeing Myths of notable quality on numerous occasions. Oh I saw Myth labels but 90% of them were crappier than all of the godlies I was still wearing (the remaining 10% were simply just worse than my other Myths).


No, wave 8 is where you had to start a survival.. Good loot would drop later..wave 15,20,25.. wherever.. but you didn't have the option back then of advancing to wave 20 and get loot from the last 5 waves.


[quote]
$100 says that you will get your face smashed on NM Deeper Well and be unable to complete it before completing a different map. Me +3 friends could only just barely survive to the last wave, whereupon the game throws 6 ogres at you. At once.

The best we did was killing 5 of them with the last one WTFmurdering the crystal because we couldn't draw aggro fast enough.[/QUOTE]

I'll have to keep that in mind.

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No, wave 8 is where you had to start a survival.. Good loot would drop later..wave 15,20,25.. wherever.. but you didn't have the option back then of advancing to wave 20 and get loot from the last 5 waves.


That may be the maximum you could start at, but when loot doesn't drop until 15 at best, you're still in for a several hour grind.

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Right, my turn.

This conversation really annoys me as its based on an assumption - that the only people using split screen are there for levelling/loot. This totally ignores the fact (purposely or otherwise) that some people use split screen to play local co-op (seriously, read the comments in this thread - many of them don't even contemplate that).

Me and the girlfriend have played over 300 hours of split screen together. The reason we love this game is that its something we can play together, while at the same time being able to level, customize, and work on our own individual characters. When we stumbled upon the game we couldn't believe that it offered us exactly what we wanted and we've been huge fans ever since.

Removing XP per local player/not allowing multiples of awards etc will break the game for us who use split screen as intended.

If you think people are abusing the system, fix the fact that people are abusing the system rather than removing the entire thing.

Surely it would be simple enough to allow online hosts to toggle 'allow splitscreen users' as an option when starting a game. Isn't that really all thats needed?

Dan

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Why not make the splitscreen local co-op option an offline / unranked only kind of thing? I really only play splitscreen socially with people around me anyways, and it's not like any of us care about ranked play when we are goofing around. And I'm entirely certain my girlfriend doesn't care about online play in that regard either.

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Why not make the splitscreen local co-op option an offline / unranked only kind of thing? I really only play splitscreen socially with people around me anyways, and it's not like any of us care about ranked play when we are goofing around. And I'm entirely certain my girlfriend doesn't care about online play in that regard either.


That would be ok, except for those that play splitcreen like Dan said seriously........... Me and my Daughter played pure splitcreen me and her till we got to the Shard DLC's we wanted to gear up and learn out builds before we started playing with the community. I do hate that in DD1 the ranked and offline mode are not equal. was tough to want to progress on one of my characters, but could not due to it really not meaning anything.

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I am hoping somehow, Splitscreen works its way back in, as DD has been a great bonding experience for my fiancee and I. Even if it is just an offline option, that would be fine - I do love Trendy so much but please don't turn into one of those devs that removes the local multiplayer option in favour of having the only multiplayer available be online.

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That would be ok, except for those that play splitcreen like Dan said seriously........... Me and my Daughter played pure splitcreen me and her till we got to the Shard DLC's we wanted to gear up and learn out builds before we started playing with the community. I do hate that in DD1 the ranked and offline mode are not equal. was tough to want to progress on one of my characters, but could not due to it really not meaning anything.


I get that. Me and my girlfriend have only recently found DD1 in the past two months so we haven't had the desire to get into community games yet. I suppose after some time we'll want to play online that way, so finding a compromise for splitscreen online would be best. But if all else fails, any option for local co-op would be much appreciated, rather than none at all.

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Right, my turn.

This conversation really annoys me as its based on an assumption - that the only people using split screen are there for levelling/loot. This totally ignores the fact (purposely or otherwise) that some people use split screen to play local co-op (seriously, read the comments in this thread - many of them don't even contemplate that).

Me and the girlfriend have played over 300 hours of split screen together. The reason we love this game is that its something we can play together, while at the same time being able to level, customize, and work on our own individual characters. When we stumbled upon the game we couldn't believe that it offered us exactly what we wanted and we've been huge fans ever since.

Removing XP per local player/not allowing multiples of awards etc will break the game for us who use split screen as intended.

If you think people are abusing the system, fix the fact that people are abusing the system rather than removing the entire thing.

Surely it would be simple enough to allow online hosts to toggle 'allow splitscreen users' as an option when starting a game. Isn't that really all thats needed?

Dan


You have to see it from their point of view and play devils advocate. The majority of pc players playing split screen WERE doing it because they wanted xp on their builders and they wanted it with out grinding tavern defense a million times when they could cut the grind down by 3/4's. The question is is it worth inconveniencing the console / legitimate pc split screen users to keep the integrity of their game. Personally I don't see the point in it because if it has no box price whats to stop someone from having an account for every character. But I believe that has already been pointed out.

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only reason i bought DD was for split screen, i dnt like how split screen is used on pc now but then again i use 4 characters for farming xD

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I think removoving plit-screen is removing a essential part of DD and most people (like me) play exclusively with friends on it.
I don't really understand with there is a problem with xp because you can make a stytem of participation in game like builds/kills/repair a the end of each wave and with that avoid xp farming like said above...
You can also make a stystem like this :
When more than one person is in game each chest of whaverer else drop one item per player and only collectible by him.
But if splitscreen is implemented (hope it will) i am sure that trendy will find something to fix this problem.

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Alright, I know that there is a suggestion forum, but this isn't really a suggestion, more of a question, but if it's in the wrong place, I apologize in advance.

So I've sunk many hours into DD1 mainly at my friends house on his console. I would've played on my pc, but part of the experience is the split-screen / local multiplayer aspect, and unfortunately DD1 on PC doesn't support split-screen the same way it does on console, so we would be forced to share mana & items.

I'm just wondering the status of this in DD2, will there be split-screen? Will it allow multiple players on PC, or will they all still be bound to one account, forced to share resources? (That seems much more exploitable than a 'proper' implementation) If there is no split-screen what's the story about local multi-player?

Sorry for the so many questions in one post, but I've done more Googling / emailing than I really care to do anymore.


Back to the original questions and partial answers. The key point on how DD1 operated with regards to split screen was a steam issue of not allowing multiple instances to run within an instance of the OS. Now DD1 could have made some work arounds but I feel that would have been a major undertaking. Now there are ways you can get more than one steam instance running on the same machine and they all involve sandbox type applications to allow steam to only see one instance running while in a separate memory area of the machine you have a completely separate OS running and therefore another steam instance up and running. Complicated yes, but I know people who have done this. *and yes this means all the people saying split-screen is bad cause it leads to cheap xp and loot - but really you can't stop every single possible way for people to get around to cheap xp and loot (2nd computer etc)*

Now how does this give a partial answer to DD2, well if Trendy isn't using Steam as the gateway to the game then they can easily set it to allow more than one instance and therefore allow multiple accounts up and running on the same machine. This still allows cheap xp and loot as some detest, and still allows cheap xp and loot as some enjoy. But it would also allow friends to all gather around and play on the same machine. My only real comment is that if they allow split screen or multiple account instance to run - please allow my split screen options to let me push one on one monitor and the other on the other monitor as it would be nice to go full screen on each monitor and still be playing together as we sit around the warm pc that is toasting marshmellows.

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I think removoving plit-screen is removing a essential part of DD and most people (like me) play exclusively with friends on it.
I don't really understand with there is a problem with xp because you can make a stytem of participation in game like builds/kills/repair a the end of each wave and with that avoid xp farming like said above...
You can also make a stystem like this :
When more than one person is in game each chest of whaverer else drop one item per player and only collectible by him.
But if splitscreen is implemented (hope it will) i am sure that trendy will find something to fix this problem.


If most people played split screen only with their friends that's a lot less boxes sold. Which is less revenue for the developers to make more dlc or a sequel. Where as if everyone buys their own box and does what grey-1 said to do to simulate split screen Trendy would receive their just compensation for their hard work. Ideally they would reinvest a chunk of that money back into the game.

That is all assuming that your friends did not buy their own box as well.

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