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donnyb20

Chest Keys and Instanced Mana

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Very apparent that your view on this is rather entrenched, so I'll stop troubling you after this.

Ok, I missed any statement RE: Inventory state. However saying it doesn't hinder gameplay in a loot based game is not a valid statement in my opinion.

But it's not harder because of a lack of chest mana. You still have enough mana with two players for a solid starting defence (infact, more than enough). I would go as far as to say that there is far too much mana for the first wave of a 4 player game, and probably even a 3 player game. However, that's an issue with instanced chests, not keys.

So are you implying that Trendy balanced it around each player having access to all chests on a map, and then limited you to 2 of those chests, thus cutting you off from mana you percieve as part of your pool? You said it yourself, Trendy decides how much mana each player has access to each wave. That amount is currently being split between two chests. More chests still results in the same total mana pool..


Well, I meant compared to how keys hinder you. Yes, a poor inventory system does indeed hurt, but it still works right now.

Not harder with less mana? What version of the game do you have? I want a copy. Less mana directly means less towers and/or less upgrades. I.E. Harder. Trendy balances the map around X amount of mana, and 4 player games. Having 2 players means you get half the available chest mana. That hurts more and more the further you get. This isn't a "huge" problem if you have 4 players, but if you have 3? You lose 1/4th of the possible mana. 2? half gone. Solo? You have to contend with a meager 1/4th of the chest mana normally given on a map. Surely you can't say that is a good thing?

Not sure I agree with "too much starting mana", but that's largely an opinion thing as far as I see it.

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I do get what they're trying to do here, allowing everyone to participate both in the building ánd the fighting. It's going to need some changes to work out though. Not an easy issue, as you can't give everyone all the chests (too easy of a start) or balance it according to the amount of players on the map, seeing how people can join after you take a bunch of mana.

I don't have a solution ready, but right now it mostly means that solo play just isn't an option, and you're going to be behind if you have one or two friends, as opposed to three. Think of the people who just can't make enough friends, Trendy!

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It obvious what the keys are doing. They inspire cooperative play. Soloing isn't viable. There is the glitch though that, if another person is with you, you leave the game and enter back in with two more keys. But that is just annoying.

I'm hoping they get rid of the keys and instanced mana by the time the beta comes out. This makes sense (sort of) for testing but not for the real game. And as oswarlan stated, Trendy balances a map around mana. My question is for everyone, when is the best time to balance? During the beta?

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It obvious what the keys are doing. They inspire cooperative play. Soloing isn't viable. There is the glitch though that, if another person is with you, you leave the game and enter back in with two more keys. But that is just annoying.

I'm hoping they get rid of the keys and instanced mana by the time the beta comes out. This makes sense (sort of) for testing but not for the real game. And as oswarlan stated, Trendy balances a map around mana. My question is for everyone, when is the best time to balance? During the beta?


Ideally, IMO, base mechanics and such come first, then fine tuning. Though things don't always work out quite so easily.

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My only question is what is the point? Really, I check with people about their building stats before I build because I want the best stats for the towers. So really, what is the point? People that want to build will do so and people that want to work as a team will do so! Get rid of keys and instance mana altogether, thats my opinion.

If I have a qualm with someone building when they clearly suck and have no idea what they are doing, I have the right to leave and let them be, that is IT. During the pre-alpha, yea it sucks because usually that'll be the only level people are playing on so I have to wait for them to finish or fill up that room with 4 players before I can make a new level on that difficulty. But during the beta and on, I'm thinking this won't be an issue.

So my point is that there is no point to keys or instance mana. If people want team work they will create it and give the mana they grab to the player with the best tower stats. If someone doesn't want to work together, then they won't.

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I don't disagree with you there, though I do quite like the instanced mana from chests. Just makes sure that you get the mana from your chest. Beyond that, well, I've made my opinion on keys more than clear, perhaps sometimes not as nice as I should have been.

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1-
A) If this is the case, why hasn't trendy said as much? (in fact why hasn't trendy said ANYTHING >.>) We can speculate all we want on this, it doesn't matter. The system is disliked, and gimmicks like extra keys per wave are just an annoyance.


Well mostly, I've been super busy but I am keeping up with this thread. The second component here was that I waiting for the council to dig through the surface and get to some truly useful insight on the system, but I think the chance of that have pretty much dead-ended now. You guys are running in circles and having an argument which has basically boiled down to "I don't think this has a place in the game" against "I think this has a place in the game".

B) If it is indeed this, then why keys? Why not just better place the chests? It isn't exactly hard to move a chest spawn point.
2-
I've seen this argument a lot, and it just doesn't make sense. if trendy is going through all this effort to squish us down to 2 chests, we need enough mana to still play yes? Well we *barely* have that thanks to 4 people. Why exactly would more chests not equal more mana? Instanced chests have nothing to do with that. The only thing instanced chests do (unless trendy has been adding things to it secretly) is make it so that the mana dropped from a chest you open, is mana that only you can see/pickup. It doesn't in any way affect the amount you get out of it.


Let me clarify a couple things before allowing this to proceed.

A: The players on a map get exactly the amount of mana we decide they get. We grade the total amount of mana we want to come out of chests in the build phase across two chests right now.
B: During combat, likewise, the enemies drop exactly the amount of mana in total as we decide they drop.
C: If you feel you're not getting enough mana for all four players out of the chests, that's an entirely different issue than the chests being a limitation -- that simply means you feel we didn't put enough mana on the board, and that's super easy to change.

A couple other notes:

Why two chests? We want players to travel around the map to pick up chests -- there's a reason why chests tend to be near enemy spawn points, because this process helps you learn a new map more rapidly and helps guide you towards the enemy spawners. When the keys system was first installed, the system defaulted to two keys -- I decided to leave it two keys for two primary reasons:
-- I wanted players to move around the map some, but I didn't want players to have to go and retrieve every single chest each wave (this would get annoying very fast for seasoned players)
-- In earlier player levels, if you open only one treasure chest, it will need to dump out more mana than you can carry, forcing you to return to the drop point and pick up the remainder. I felt this would be pretty annoying.

Chests aren't a perfect solution -- me and one of the GD's debated this system for two days. I've never been perfectly happy with it, but right now it's the least imperfect solution we could reach while still solving the problems we were hoping to solve with it. This is one of the fun things about having everyone play while the game is in-development, we get to put out early systems and make changes accordingly. There are 3 or 4 changes we are adding in to the system as you read this based on feedback from this thread.

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The second component here was that I waiting for the council to dig through the surface and get to some truly useful insight on the system, but I think the chance of that have pretty much dead-ended now. You guys are running in circles and having an argument which has basically boiled down to "I don't think this has a place in the game" against "I think this has a place in the game".

There have been 106 replies in this thread over a very simple thing. That thing being "What is the best way for Trendy, the developer, to get mana into the hands of the players?". You are correct. We are going in circles. I would say nearly every argument, if not all of them, for or against the way it was implemented has been stated numerous times. We make our arguments, our polls, and our criticism but in the end, how can we tell what Trendy is thinking when it comes to our feedback? The only question we are really asked is "Do you like it? If not, why?". It would be nice to know what Trendy is thinking about with regard to the topics we bring up and the feedback that is provided in those topics. If would be nice to get asked specific questions about certain things, not just the very broad open dialogue that we currently have. It is not easy to follow Trendy's thought process, goals, or intentions with no direction given. It often feels like we are flying blind and that only works for so long.



A: The players on a map get exactly the amount of mana we decide they get. We grade the total amount of mana we want to come out of chests in the build phase across two chests right now.
B: During combat, likewise, the enemies drop exactly the amount of mana in total as we decide they drop.
C: If you feel you're not getting enough mana for all four players out of the chests, that's an entirely different issue than the chests being a limitation -- that simply means you feel we didn't put enough mana on the board, and that's super easy to change.

We are saying we are not getting enough mana for the map because 4 people might not be there. It was a system that was for lack of a better word, flawed, from the beginning simply because of the requirement that 4 people need to be present to get all mana Trendy says is needed to start the map and/or to continue to the next wave.



And a little birdie told me that there were upcoming changes to the current system. I cannot wait to see what those changes are. I really hope the changes solve all of the concerns brought up in this thread and those changes are implemented in a way that it helps the players and doesn't restrict them. I want this topic can be put to rest. I never would have expected all this hype about "chest mana".

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It would be nice to know what Trendy is thinking about with regard to the topics we bring up and the feedback that is provided in those topics.


Exactly. This is where everything is going. For one, we have what will be regular feedback reports to Council members discussing your feedback and our response to them. I believe the latest one is going out today.

If would be nice to get asked specific questions about certain things, not just the very broad open dialogue that we currently have. It is not easy to follow Trendy's thought process, goals, or intentions with no direction given. It often feels like we are flying blind and that only works for so long.


This is actually my fault. Right now the feedback we need the most is unaided feedback. I believe Dave Loyd spoke about briefly it in his Feedback Blog. It's important for us to not only read your thoughts on specific topics, but to see which topics you choose to discuss. Not discussing something is just as important feedback for us than discussing something. The same thing goes for discussing erroneous assumptions about a feature. Both highlight important things we have to fix.

We are also being very wary to not guide the conversation. We're hesitant to just come out and say our intentions, because if we have to do then it means the feature is not working as intended. Furthermore, the back and forth between council members about a feature provides valuable information about exactly what about a feature is not working.

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I really dont like this key chest system, maybe you want to force co-op play but it's impossible to play in solo... Almost every time when i want to test DD2 i'm stuck because of this.. I don't have a lot of free time and when i want to take my defencer concil role and help ... i'm alone in a map , and because of this stupid key system i just can't make defence and i die at the first wave...
I really don't get it ? how can we help you if you make this kind of feature ???
I think this key chests things is really really bad , just imagine the game with this when he's done ! people will hate that , ok it's maybe a game who want to be more multi than solo but a lot of people love to play solo , or just beguin a game alone then invite people to it , cause of this it's just not possible...

I'm sad cause i really want to play and help but this key system just block everything.


sorry for my bad english

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I'm late to the party on this one, but here's my thoughts:

I like the idea of keys, but as it currently works I do not like it. It makes the game unplayable solo, difficult with two, but easy at four.

There's also the problem that you can get more mana by having a second player: they use their two keys, leave the game, and rejoin. Getting another two keys. They can repeat this as often as they'd like, as every time they rejoin the chests are reset and they have new keys, but all the mana they looted and spent remains on the map.

Instanced mana is nice though. I wondered if it was (I could tell for mana out of chests, but not from mob kills). There appears to be a timer on how long it stays instanced before it's available for everybody, but I don't know how long it is.

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I really dont like this key chest system, maybe you want to force co-op play but it's impossible to play in solo... Almost every time when i want to test DD2 i'm stuck because of this.. I don't have a lot of free time and when i want to take my defencer concil role and help ... i'm alone in a map , and because of this stupid key system i just can't make defence and i die at the first wave...
I really don't get it ? how can we help you if you make this kind of feature ???
I think this key chests things is really really bad , just imagine the game with this when he's done ! people will hate that , ok it's maybe a game who want to be more multi than solo but a lot of people love to play solo , or just beguin a game alone then invite people to it , cause of this it's just not possible...

I'm sad cause i really want to play and help but this key system just block everything.


sorry for my bad english



You get 4 chest keys per wave instead of 2 if you are playing solo (but you will only start with 2 until you get past the first wave).

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(but you will only start with 2 until you get past the first wave).


Still makes most maps unplayable.

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