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Free to play... Not needed?


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If you want to do F2p, just don't make it p2w and i'll be okay with it. Also, for the love of God, don't make maxing inventory space/bank space more expensive to fully unlock than buying the game would have been.

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I know I will be playing whether it is p2p or f2p. Hopefully it won't end up p2w. I see way to many games like that and don't want an amazing game like this to be ruined.

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They could Always do both Something kinda Like DD1 but have a Shop in the menu so you can buy new Skins or Defender on the Fly instead of using steam or something to get these other Defenders or Skins for Defenders it will go state to the developer. I for one is dreading the Free to play Model but i do like the idea of a shop so i can support the developer not Steam and it can be just more Convent for me and for them to just have a option to buy it in game. I like the release Price because it takes time to make a game and hard work i would happily Pay for the Game and new Content they Release.

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I registered here just to say that even though I loved Dungeon Defenders and own all of the DLC for it, if Dungeon Defenders II is "free to play" or has microtransactions or whatever else then sadly I'll have to pass on it. I loathe that kind of payment model, and see no reason why Trendy is trying to fix what isn't broken. Sell the game, sell the DLC, and have that be it. When I read that DD2 wouldn't be a MOBA after all I was thrilled, but once I read that it's still going to be F2P my heart sank. The original Dungeon Defenders is one of my favorite games, and my third most-played on Steam, but if Trendy is insisting on this kind of payment model then it may as well still be a MOBA for all I care.

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What do you all think of kickstarter and/or stretch goals? Do you find directly paying for ongoing development (and knowing what your money is going toward to build in the game) better than traditional free to play models?

Also, what's everyone's thoughts on subscriptions or hybrid subscription models like Eve/Wildstar?


Just going to say it, If cash shop involves any form of currency that you can buy ingame items/currency to trade with other players. I'm out. So will many others I think.

I'm fine with a sub, B2P + DLC(Would rather have sub if the content is worth it)

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I whould pay for the game and upcoming dlc too, i think this would be much better as a cash shop

if i think at DD1 i remeber a missing bridge between midend-game and end-game the time i played
to get the equip i needed to get into the end-game was really hard, there was not really a good way instead of buying the stuff
then they released a good map for farming and there were better items and then they fixed it, the bringde was destroyed to get the stuff youre self :-( dont know if this changed now, the last time i played is long ago
and if they do a cash-shop in DD2 i dont wanna know how it will be then with this gap

a cosmetic cah shop would be okay but if there are some boosts/equip then this will be a no go
sell DD2 for 30-40 bucks and do a season pass for the first 4 dlc and the other stuff like the dlc's for DD1
i am willing to pay for each dlc instead of a cash shop

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  • 2 weeks later...
Money should never be involved in gear, mana acquisition, or exp acquisition. Thus, the F2P option seems unviable. League of Legends imo is an extremely nice model of F2P. The only things money can buy are cosmetic skins and 'boosts' towards things that can be acquired without said boosts, such as iP (a form of in-game currency earned by playing the game) and exp (again, can be earned by simply playing the game). You cannot buy runes (little statistics you can equip, similar to DD's gear), nor can you buy in-game items (more stats, again like gear).

However, this only works because League has well over 100 champs, each with numerous skins, and is the most played online video game atm. Having millions of people stare at hundreds of skins for champions they play on a daily or weekly basis will inevitably result in profit. Trendy doesn't have the same situation. The amount of things that can be sold via 'micro transaction' is very small in comparison. Skins? Sure, but theres only like 4 champs so far. More champs? Yeah, I guess, but that would mean P2W unless we could earn them without the money somehow. Tavern cosmetics? Imo not gonna be a huge seller.

Imo, Trendy should just charge up-front for the game. Perhaps we could donate via kickstarter and receive a little bonus for doing so (cosmetic only, no bought stats/weapons/gear pls), which may help reduce the release price. But overall, and I mean no offense by this whatsoever, I don't think Trendy has a big enough game on their hand to be as successful as League of Legends in term of non-P2W F2P profits.

HOWEVER!!!! One thing that bugged me about DD1 is how drastic the price difference was between the 'base' game and the full-DLC version of the game. I think base was only like 9$ whereas full-DLC was around 50$. That's a ~450% increase in price... Imo, either the amount of DLC's should be limited via including much more per DLC, or the price per DLC (assuming same DLC size) should go down, so that players don't feel left in the dust without having the buy the latest greatest part of the game that everyones talking about.

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What do you all think of kickstarter and/or stretch goals? Do you find directly paying for ongoing development (and knowing what your money is going toward to build in the game) better than traditional free to play models?

Also, what's everyone's thoughts on subscriptions or hybrid subscription models like Eve/Wildstar?

assuming information the customer is told is correct (no accusations, simply hypothetical), and supporting at X time for the reason of helping with part A or K of a game, is certainly much more favorable than F2P, if you ask me.


this is not to say that the F2P model cannot work, however trying to balance free, semi-free, and constantly paying players is always a difficult thing to do.
my biggest point would be that while Power Creep always sells in the end - it isn't healthy for the game and if a Developer expects a title to be successful for an extended period, avoiding that as much as possible is rather important. all that ever does is cause prospective players to start skipping content.

if you expect players to invest a lot of time with limited content, incentivising them to skip content with Power Creep is certainly the opposite of that. players will 'always' target whatever is the most effective or is simply the 'best', making say... a new Weapon that is designed around 'endgame' that new players can get either right away or very quickly - means they will skip every Weapon before it, in almost every single case. why bother with the others if that one is simply better, right?

the best thing a F2P model can do, is allow extras that are not directly game related. this is a given of course, but also a big source of things to sell. coloring equipment, extra visual addons or replacements, even effect changes, can all revolve around Cash without actually impacting the gameplay.
something to be very wary of though, is letting players buy game content. letting them buy 'Credits', Equipment, abilities, and other fundamental parts of the gameplay really throws balance out of the window, and with it, goes 'fun' and creativity.


as for Subscriptions - if a game is Subscription based, i don't play it. it's that simple. i don't care if it's $1 a month, i won't play it. a Developer does not choose when i spend my money. i do. if i'm to be tempted to spend money, i want a game that is enjoyable enough for me to want to. holding a game hostage for my wallet won't work.

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I think that f2p wouldnt be good at all for DD2 for a couples of reasons and i will explain why.

All poeple on the forum here like dungeon defenders a bit at least. Those will sure pay for some content (maybe skins and hero customisation, anything in store). But what about all the players that would play DD2 as a casual game between 2 league of legends matchs or after some boredoom of their favorite mmo. Those already spend real money in their ''main game'' and i think they wouldnt cause of this in DD2. ( This is based on my personnal experience and by seeing my bro and my gaming buddys playing different stuff on steam and mmos)

Also, for keeping your player interested in the game, a company should always try to add new content fast enought so gamers wouldnt get bored playing always the same stuff. If the game would be f2p, those dlc would be free and Trendy should take a chance that DD lovers buy somes skins? This is why I think that a set price for the main game and dlc that you have to pay for would be better. Everybody could farm skins by completing different quests or goals just like in dd1. This way, everybody could always enjoy the game equaly.

Another thing i would like to share, is the fact that poeples that love to collect stuff and farm, then show their stuff in tavern.
dd1: hey look at that dude, all those items in his tavern, and his toon looks cool with those accesories.
f2p dd2: Hey look that dude, just a rich man who paid for a free game just to look cool...

That beeing said, i think there'S in anything Trendy choose pros and cons and that will be interesting to see how well the game will do. Cant wait until the release! Also thank for taking time to read my opinion! :P

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  • 2 weeks later...
Free to play usually means pay to win and honestly I have the impression that f2p games rake in more money than ones with a paywall. I persnally don't like f2p games but I'll probably play it either way.


Especially in MOBA games, the free to play is never a pay to win. They are sold only cosmetic items, skins and things like that.

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I think what most people are afraid of is that you dont have grip of what the game will going to cost you in the end. The developers here keep saying its not pay to win. Well in the end it Always is!

There is no way you could complete crystal dimension without buying a DLC if you dont have all the expansions you will never get ultimate gear yourself. etc etc in DD1. so its Always pay to win.

I dont mind paying money for a good game wich i play allot. but the thought that i dont know how much it will cost me in 2 years.. thats what makes me think if i should go playing it. if every tiny thing in DD2 is going to be payed and every map will cost 5 dollars then i think the whole free to play is one big misleading marketing trick to get people addicted and then let them spend 100's of dollars.

I would rather see the whole road map of DD2 in wich i exatly know how many expansions will come and what they will cost. or atleast a road map on wich is indicated how many times a month or so DLC is released and what a package contains or what it will cost.

Now you know absolutely nothing about it.

last of all i hope this game will be hosted outside steam. the service has been more offline the last few weeks then online. disconnecting me over 10 times every evening. sometimes taking a few hours before i could get back on steam. Complaining about it on steam forum got me banned there.

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I would challenge anyone to find me a game that claims to use a F2P model that was released in, lets say, the past 5 years that doesn't have any type of micro transactions and also doesn't have any type of P2W situations. I don't know every game out there but if anyone on here finds one or "thinks" they have found one then please tell me. I will go get it and let you know if it is truly a F2P game that doesn't pray on the player. It can be a game that runs on Windows 7 or on my Android phone. I would be EXTREMELY surprised to see one. I want to see a game that is truly 100% F2P and in no way can be argued that it is something else. Bueler???


Dude, haven't you heard of Dota 2? There is absolutely no P2W at all in its microtransaction system, everything is purely cosmetic. You can play the game without spending a single dime and do it on equal ground as someone who paid thousands of dollars for the cosmetic items.

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I would agree that the F2P is not really needed, however, it does help promote the game in a way that more people will be able to experience it. I wouldn't have played Dungeon Defenders if it weren't for me accidentally clicking the wrong link in Steam. I stumbled into the page and fell in love with the concept and the rest is history. Between consoles and PC I've raked in 1,100 hours (200 hours AFK Shop) and I have no regrets. I know a lot of people that can Not spend even $15.00 so the F2P will allow them to enjoy a good game. They may not be able to buy the extra costumes or every hero but it's a start.

On the P2W front, I can't stand it when a game does this. P2W is not cool in my book. It's like playing an RPG for the first time and using a full guide to play through it. It ruins the fun. The only thing I see happening here would be storage space and that does Not break the game. You could argue that it makes mana farming easier but if your bags are full and you're in a campaign run/survival run you're doing something wrong to begin with.

My 2ยข

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Dude, haven't you heard of Dota 2? There is absolutely no P2W at all in its microtransaction system, everything is purely cosmetic. You can play the game without spending a single dime and do it on equal ground as someone who paid thousands of dollars for the cosmetic items.



Yes, I had heard of it. Never played it and don't know anything about it. As soon as I see a game say they are free to play, I lose ALL interest in it. DD2 is different though cause I am seeing it go through the process of being developed and I am going to know EXACTLY what to expect. I will not end up being led down a different path after finding out that I like playing the game.

Dota 2 does appear to be cosmetic only based on what I have just read and seen, however, it adds whole different problem to the table by allowing players to create cosmetics. The developers can then sell those and gives a portion of that sale to person who designed that item. That is a no go for me. I will not play a game if its developer uses its players to make them a profit by selling to other players. That is nothing more than a broker system. I want to immerse myself in a game for it being a game. I don't want to be surrounded by non-sense.

So yes, Dota 2 is completely F2P it seems and nothing appears to be affecting the gameplay itself. The question now is, are you the type of person that would play a game knowing that the profits to the developer would be coming from player-to-player transactions? Personally, I am not ok with that. I don't want my developer leeching or mooching off player-to-player transactions. I want my developer developing their own stuff.

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Yes, I had heard of it. Never played it and don't know anything about it. As soon as I see a game say they are free to play, I lose ALL interest in it. DD2 is different though cause I am seeing it go through the process of being developed and I am going to know EXACTLY what to expect. I will not end up being led down a different path after finding out that I like playing the game.

Dota 2 does appear to be cosmetic only based on what I have just read and seen, however, it adds whole different problem to the table by allowing players to create cosmetics. The developers can then sell those and gives a portion of that sale to person who designed that item. That is a no go for me. I will not play a game if its developer uses its players to make them a profit by selling to other players. That is nothing more than a broker system. I want to immerse myself in a game for it being a game. I don't want to be surrounded by non-sense.

So yes, Dota 2 is completely F2P it seems and nothing appears to be affecting the gameplay itself. The question now is, are you the type of person that would play a game knowing that the profits to the developer would be coming from player-to-player transactions? Personally, I am not ok with that. I don't want my developer leeching or mooching off player-to-player transactions. I want my developer developing their own stuff.


Woah, woah, woah. Huge red flags going off all over the place for me here.

#1 - If you're judging a game purely based on its price, you're missing out on a lot of awesome games.

#2 - I regularly contribute cosmetic items to TF2's workshop - here are some of my submissions. I do it because I want to, I want the recognition, I want the exposure, the money's not a bad thing either. What's wrong with letting players create cosmetics? Do you not realize some that contributors have been able to LIVE off the profits they make from it? How about the fact that their artistic talent would most likely have gone completely under-appreciated without the exposure the game gives them? Or maybe even the fact that the developers are able to focus more on the quality of making the core game better, instead of modeling cosmetic items? Community contribution is what keeps the game alive, and I am hoping with all my heart and soul that Dungeon Defenders 2 follows suit.

Please, please, PLEASE don't pass such harsh judgments on games and business models you don't understand. If you've played DOTA2 for a couple hours and you weren't enthralled with the gameplay (which is my story), saying "I didn't like the game" is totally fine. But saying "I've never played it and don't know anything about it", then going on about how much you despise DOTA2's economy and business model? ...I don't want to start a flame war here, so I'll just leave it at that.

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I am sure that there have been many games and there will be many more games that are awesome that associate themselves with the "free to play" term. They can do so at there own risk. I don't like to be around games that use that association just like I don't like being around people who smoke cigarettes. I probably missed out on a quite a few good nights/parties. No sleep lost here.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with allowing players to make cosmetics. The problem is when a company is using that as their means to make a profit. Would you make those cosmetics still if there was no money in it for you? I am guessing you would based on your answer but how many out there would do it if there was no financial gain? It is safe to say the majority wouldn't. These transactions are no different than someone buying in-game gold in a game like WoW from a "gold farmer". The only difference is that the developer jumps in and that steals their cut making it acceptable cause they are getting something out of it.

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The first time I had heard about the Dota2 workshop I was excited to make some items just for the fun of it. I didn't know that there would be any money in it for me, and when I heard that, I thought it was an amazing opportunity. In the end I didn't end up making any items because I just simply don't have the time to do so. But I think you are underestimating peoples desire to one: make something awesome, and two: make something that others will get to interact with. This is what drives all creative fields.

Give people the opportunity to be creative and they will come.
Give people rewards for their creativity and they will flock to you.

Edit - @Gigazelle, I don't play TF2, but if I did I would totally buy a watch from you. Good work.

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I really don't understand half of what's being discussed here, but whatever you guys decide to do make sure you make a healthy profit. I want it to be a great game, plenty of original content, plenty of DLC and add-on's and I like themes, events, costumes and contests.

can't wait...

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I wish I had been around to see the way it was actually released first hand but from what I have gathered with my research of how it all was released it could have been done better, yes. It wasn't necessarily bad they way it went down and left a few things opened up to be argued P2W.

1 - Instead of releasing the shard maps one at a time, just allow us to purchase the entire thing outright from the beginning. One price from the beginning for all of the content. Not X.XX for Part 1 and X.XX for Part 2, etc. If Trendy wanted to stagger people having access to it so the content isn't blown through in one weekend, then they could have simply announced the dates when each of the 5 maps was going to be released for playing.

2 - The way Nightmare was released. Some player who purchased something got early access or something. I think that is what I read. In time, it would be available to everyone. Now we have new players joining the game with access to nightmare but no Summoner/EV for them to use. They cannot play the game on Nightmare and be successful. Was it intended to be this way? No, I don't believe so. It was all about how everything was released and the way it all went down.

You are ok giving an edge to those who buy heros but not ok doing it with weapons/armor/etc? They both give an advantage. If you are ok with one, why not be ok with both? What is the difference?


DD1 was released as an initial single payment, that honestly was often discounted or included in amazon or steam bundles / sales. And there was a free demo version. I remember I paid less than 7$ for the original game. New content was mostly released free for the first 2 weeks, so if you were an active player you got the new content free. If you missed the free period, then the content was 0.99-2.99$. Shard map 1 ( mistymire ) was a paid release, there was a package deal that allowed access to all 4 shard maps when they were available + it allowed alpha access to nightmare mode. Orginally alpha nightmare only included the addition of spiders, as each map was released a new enemy was added to nightmare mode. Moraggo added Djinn. Aquanos added Shaken. Sky City added goblin copters. A few of the additonal characters were not released free for 2 weeks.

DD1 never felt like a pay to win setup to me. Nightmare was done without EV's and without minions to start with. Those characters were released later. EV's showed up about the time of Moraggo. Summoners between aquanos and sky city. Now, each new map did bring new loot that was probably more powerful than before. So, if you wanted to progress in power you needed to move to the newer maps.

I don't have a problem with DD2 being free to play, that lets them incorporate the demo version into the main game. Just let us have a full unlock option, so we can pay and have all the content for 6 months or a year. Then pay for a later expansion. Season pass type concept.

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There is absolutely nothing wrong with allowing players to make cosmetics. The problem is when a company is using that as their means to make a profit. Would you make those cosmetics still if there was no money in it for you? I am guessing you would based on your answer but how many out there would do it if there was no financial gain? It is safe to say the majority wouldn't. These transactions are no different than someone buying in-game gold in a game like WoW from a "gold farmer". The only difference is that the developer jumps in and that steals their cut making it acceptable cause they are getting something out of it.


Well, the developers will have to make back what they invested so much time and money in somehow, right? I see nothing wrong with taking a cut from the player-created cosmetics if it means the core gameplay is regularly updated and stays free. Yes, the players create most of the cosmetics, but the developers will still be the ones approving, implementing, and distributing them in the game. Also, besides releasing their own cosmetics regularly, the developers also create special events multiple times in a year (which we never even asked for) without charging players anything in order to play them. They deserve every single penny that they get, in my opinion.

So yes, Dota 2 is fully F2P (the gameplay is awesome too by the way), but if the only "catch" to it is developers taking a cut from player cosmetics, I will gladly pay them so I can support both the contributor and the developer.

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Well, the developers will have to make back what they invested so much time and money in somehow, right?

it might be a foreign concept in this day and age but, ya know, there was at one point this rather unique concept of purchasing a game. It served society quite well and guess what? Everybody wins.

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it might be a foreign concept in this day and age but, ya know, there was at one point this rather unique concept of purchasing a game. It served society quite well and guess what? Everybody wins.


And you're absolutely right! That's one way to sell a game, and it follows a very traditional path. One company that I can think of that still holds to its tried and true standard is Nintendo. To date, I have yet to see them release a free-to-play game, or even any other model than "you buy the game, you get the game".

But, that's not the only way to sell a game.

Each payment model has their advantages and disadvantages; for example, the f2p model does not impose a cap on how much a player chooses to support the developer. Instead, it lets the player choose exactly how much (be it none or thousands of dollars). It also allows revenue sharing between community contributors. Neither of these would be effective in a game where you pay a static amount and get exactly what you pay for; no more, no less.

Fun fact: Did you know I've spent over $100 over the four years and 2200 hours that I've played Team Fortress 2? When I first started playing the game, I did not intend to spend any more money than what the base game cost (this was before it went free-to-play). But, as time went on, I opted to invest money here and there to support the developers of the game and community contributors. Over the years, the game has continually been updated, and I have continually chosen to show my support to them by making smaller purchases over time. Had they not gone free-to-play, the game would have most likely waned long ago. Game life spans are generally around 2 years, but this one seems to keep chugging along in its SEVENTH year and counting. How many other games do you know of that has an even more active community than what it was seven years ago? Certainly no game that follows a traditional payment model, that's for sure.

Making a game f2p doesn't guarantee a game's success, but making a *good* f2p game (which I anticipate DD2 will be) that is constantly updating is sure to keep a healthy, active (and paying) community for years to come.

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Go look at the original EverQuest or EverQuest 2. Both are subscription based. Some changes made to them. You buy the games. You buy the expansions. Cause of this new fad with the F2P non-sense I know in EQ2 when I was playing it they actually made a dedicated server for those that opted into doing the real currency stuff. Those server were locked. You couldn't transfer away from that server to ensure the other server wouldn't be infected with the non sense. Those were also not the server where the population of the game was at. The vast majority of the population was on normal servers.

EverQuest released in 1999 going on 14+ years just released it 20th expansion at the end of 2013.
EverQuest 2 released in 2004 going on 9+ years just released its 9th expansion in addition to 3 mini expansions during this time. Also I can say in EQ2 that there are moments(game updates) that started happening that are done quarterly or semi-annually. When I stopped playing the game I believe it was on like GU 60 or so. Constant changes. Constant reworking of older content to attract people. MAJOR game changes as the game evolved.

There is also going to be the 3rd installment of the game EverQuest Next which is going to use a 3rd parallel universe to the two that already exist. All three game will be running simultaneously each with their own player base.

I will admit I am truly shocked how the EQ1 is still in existence but they wouldn't keep making content for a dying game if there was no profit to be made.

I bet you never heard a person with a nintendo game complain that someone else had an unfair advantage cause they chose to pay some additional money.

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