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My ballista pre-patch 3k dmg, post patch 1.5


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for those that complained that the multitargeting part and were actually suggesting the DPS for a single target should be higher , let me explain this again.

The training dummy is a single target.

2.8k DPS on a training dummy , would be an everage output of 10k DPS on insane difficulty , where's there is a long line of mobs to put under the targeting reticule , and the harpoon would get as to low and 'miss' and hit only 4 of its maximum 12.

The reason they added the 'maximum of 12 targets' was BECAUSE it hit more then 12 targets.

Apprentice towers are aimed at single target controls (referring mostly to MMT and the low AoE of the DFT , and the DST) whilist the squire is meant for crowd control.

Please remember that the targets that should actually be mass killed are those with the least amount of hp.

The high damage for such targets is NOT NECESSARY.

Do you really mainly use MMT and DFT as apprentice?

Edit: Sorry is DFT Deadly Fireball Tower?....I thought you meant DST

Also, can you point out what can be mass killed on insane with 1800 damage?

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I just find it odd that the patch notes originally didn't have the squire changes. Then about 6 hours before the patch comes out they get added on there. For such a major change to add them 6 hours before the patch is released seems pretty crazy to me.

Now maybe they had already made the changes and just forgot to put them in the notes. I don't know.

I do know that 50+% reductions to damage are not something to be taken lightly.


I'm pretty sure the patch notes were being updated as they added things to it. I know since I submitted the bug about the item generation algorithm. That wasn't in the first round of patch notes -- it only showed up after it got added to the bug report forum.

So... yeah. Either they deliberately waited to share it until just before the patch went live or they incorporated the changes in the past few hours. Either one seems bad, and to me it seems like things were tested very much. Given how little previous changes were tested (e.g. Apprentice towers breaking after the attack speed buff), I'm not entirely surprised.

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Well. I got a level 70 squire with about 130 tower attack. Takes him 5 or 6 shots to kill a Dark elf mage now, that includes balista and bowler for some reason does the same damage now. Same with wyerns. Which means that unless I got an Ensnare they are pretty much useless if either of those comes around. They are also no longer even a remotely reliable against kobolds. It is almost as if they dont want us to use towers as squires anymore.

My tower squire certinaly isn't the best. But he feels that weak with ~120t.health, ~130t.attack ~90t.range and ~130t.attack rate. He must feels really terrible to any player without upgraded gear.

What I think they should have done is to buff the apprentice towers abit more and maybe nerf the previous patch sqiure turrets slighty, maybe 5-10%. Make godly items only drop on insane with a game with more than one player in it and then as more people joins the monsters get much stronger proportional to how many players are in game. That would make it so solo players can still enjoy the game while still encouraging multiplayer.

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Ok, my harpoon and bowling ball tower have the exact same attack damage, even when upgraded - is that right?? I can do a 30% nerf but 50%? Jeez, I feel useless now.


welcome to when it was my old world of underpowered apprentice being in a corner, while a square does everything.

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My tower squire certinaly isn't the best. But he feels that weak with ~120t.health, ~130t.attack ~90t.range and ~130t.attack rate. He must feels really terrible to any player without upgraded gear.


He does. My Squire is pretty much fresh 70 and I've lost all motivation to play with him. :/

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Welp, guess ill go find another set of godly armor, and pump all the upgrades into tower health and just use bouncers and run around and kill everything myself.


This quote sums up my only real annoyance.
Spending mana is a waste of time at the moment.

Think you're playing intelligently? Nope you're OP and all the mana you poured into something is now wasted on what has become garbage.

Laugh at everyone who bought Godly armour for massive prices if all their stats are allocated incorrectly now right?

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my harpoon went from 4300ish to 1876, and my bowler when from 5k+ dps to 1876


4300 harpoon and 5k+ dps bowler ? seriously, now that was the triple of the app tower dmg.

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welcome to when it was my old world of underpowered apprentice being in a corner, while a square does everything.


I see, so we've gone from 'THIS PATCH WILL MAKE SQUIRES BALANCED' to 'HAH NOW IT'S YOUR TURN TO SUCK' within 15 minutes of the patch going live. Thankyou for your honesty, if nothing else. And for the record my first 70 was my Apprentice, then the Huntress. Squire was third, Monk 4th. I agree with your assessment that the squire is now a fundamentally useless character though, so there's that much we have in common.

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@Mercury

Oops , I meant FBT and instead wrote DFT X.x; - thanks for noting that part.

And yes , I do tend to mix fireball and magic missile towers in masses , playing solo on apprentice it is far too fun to play the entire Hall of court level on medium using only magic missile towers as your serving walls of shining laser balls of death.

Being honest , the apprentice is a support class and as I see it (support via killing higher living entities , like elemental resistant jerks and whyverns via DST), he was never meant to succeed in soloing the insane difficulties , like the squire did.

Going further , I do not think that insane was meant to be finish-able in solo. (without switching characters and placing multiple types of defenses)

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Blegh.

My ballista DPS is 1/3 what it used to be, Bowling is a joke now since Priests spam skellies now faster then it can kill them.

My Squire now can't solo things that my Apprentice could at the PC game launch. I can no longer kill Wyverns (ballistas firing slower means all of those misses because it tracks so poorly hurt even more + doing so little damage the Wyvern doesn't actually die when hit anymore) much less kill Priests and their skele hordes or Kamikaze Kobolds before they reach my walls.

Yay, Spike Walls have more HP... Except... Wait... That actually doesn't matter since considerably more things are reaching them and they are taking more damage and getting destroyed when they weren't dropping below half health before.

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equation information
DPS = damage*number of shots
reduced number of shots by 25%
reduced damage by 33%
DPS = damage*(100-33)/100*number of shots*(100-25)/100
DPS = damage * number of shots * 0.67 * 0.75
DPS = damage * number of shots * 0.5025
this means you lost ((1-0.5025)*100 )% , or , if you are lazy , 49.75% of your DPS


The Damage for one shot. A single shot has been reduced by 50%. My towers were doing 3300 damage per shot with 160 points in tower damage before 7.06. A single shot from them now does 1600 damage with the same 160 points in tower damage. There is no damage per second calculation to be made. This is based off of a single shot.

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I see, so we've gone from 'THIS PATCH WILL MAKE SQUIRES BALANCED' to 'HAH NOW IT'S YOUR TURN TO SUCK' within 15 minutes of the patch going live. Thankyou for your honesty, if nothing else. And for the record my first 70 was my Apprentice, then the Huntress. Squire was third, Monk 4th. I agree with your assessment that the squire is now a fundamentally useless character though, so there's that much we have in common.


stop raging kid, that wasn't an insult what i said, just told him that was how all the app tower spec build were before.

They dont suck, seriously, those 2 turrets are multitarget turrets, suppose to hit more than 1, its the same thing u compare to a Lightning tower doing 600 dmg per second, but it has a chain lightning to hit multiple enemys, increasing the dps output...

BEFORE the patch, app towers were completely useless, there was none u could use to help the team, because all the tower squires would beat.

AS YOU CAN SEE, all people crying saying they were doing 5k+ bowler damage per each hit on minion, and harpoons of 4k+s, SERIOUSLY compare that dmg, to the fireball tower of apprentices, come on, seriously do it, i have 116 tower spec dmg and i do 1865 per each fireball, and another squire with "116" BEFORE THE PATCH, were doing 3.1k dmg with harpoon, seriously, and ITS RAW DAMAGE, PHYSICAL DAMAGE, fire ball turret IS FIRE ELEMENTAL, being 1/3 of the minions immune to it, not to mention, the AI of the fireball tower sucks, it attacks the first 1 he gets in range, not an group of enemys, luckily for the squires, u can POSITION WELL THE HARPOONS and broooom there goes a piercing harpoon full of orcs/wyverns, etc more... do i also need to mention the ridiculous 30+ range bowling balls dmg 5k+ per each 0.3 secs atk speed ?

REALLY GUYS, THINK AN LITTLE, u guys were used to be DAM OP SOLOING INSANES LIKE EASY MODES, think an little please, seriously, think, dont rage, if you still dont agree,

MAKE CONSTRUCTIVE ANSWERS, NOT DESTRUCTIVE, you won't go far if u do destructive answers...

Also, im sorry if i failed on my english grammar, im tired.

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I'm having trouble doing maps on medium that I was afking through on hard before.

75% damage nerf on my 2 level 70s is nice. That's the biggest change I've ever seen in a live game...Ever. It's like they don't even test anything.

Expect a patch in a day or 2 reverting everything.

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stop raging kid


Definitely need to take your own advice.

Also, just because squires are now worse than apprentice towers doesn't suddenly make things right.

That's the biggest change I've ever seen in a live game...Ever. It's like they don't even test anything.



They do test their patches. We're testing it right now.

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@Mercury

Oops , I meant FBT and instead wrote DFT X.x; - thanks for noting that part.

And yes , I do tend to mix fireball and magic missile towers in masses , playing solo on apprentice it is far too fun to play the entire Hall of court level on medium using only magic missile towers as your serving walls of shining laser balls of death.

Being honest , the apprentice is a support class and as I see it (support via killing higher living entities , like elemental resistant jerks and whyverns via DST), he was never meant to succeed in soloing the insane difficulties , like the squire did.

Going further , I do not think that insane was meant to be finish-able in solo. (without switching characters and placing multiple types of defenses)

Yeah Fireballs are pretty good. If you only use MMT and DST (which was what I thought originally) that would be a problem lol.

I have no problem with team tactics and coop elements, but there are two things that need to happen:
1. More rewards for team games. At the current rate of stuff vanishing on the ground, the mana gain in multiplayer is abysmal. I played Hard bonus level with 4 people and got like 50k mana, while soloing it usually gives 700k. Maybe I was playing with some ninja looting people, but I did notice that stuff was vanishing even on solo bonus level, so with 4 people you are gonna get at most 1/4 the mana.

2. We need to have more variety of effective combinations instead of letting half the towers/traps/auras be useless. It gets boring when every team effectively have the same strategy at every chokepoint.... We need BUFFs

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stop raging kid, that wasn't an insult what i said, just told him that was how all the app tower spec build were before.

They dont suck, seriously, those 2 turrets are multitarget turrets, suppose to hit more than 1, its the same thing u compare to a Lightning tower doing 600 dmg per second, but it has a chain lightning to hit multiple enemys, increasing the dps output...

BEFORE the patch, app towers were completely useless, there was none u could use to help the team, because all the tower squires would beat.

AS YOU CAN SEE, all people crying saying they were doing 5k+ bowler damage per each hit on minion, and harpoons of 4k+s, SERIOUSLY compare that dmg, to the fireball tower of apprentices, come on, seriously do it, i have 116 tower spec dmg and i do 1865 per each fireball, and another squire with "116" BEFORE THE PATCH, were doing 3.1k dmg with harpoon, seriously, and ITS RAW DAMAGE, PHYSICAL DAMAGE, fire ball turret IS FIRE ELEMENTAL, being 1/3 of the minions immune to it, not to mention, the AI of the fireball tower sucks, it attacks the first 1 he gets in range, not an group of enemys, luckily for the squires, u can POSITION WELL THE HARPOONS and broooom there goes a piercing harpoon full of orcs/wyverns, etc more... do i also need to mention the ridiculous 30+ range bowling balls dmg 5k+ per each 0.3 secs atk speed ?

REALLY GUYS, THINK AN LITTLE, u guys were used to be DAM OP SOLOING INSANES LIKE EASY MODES, think an little please, seriously, think, dont rage, if you still dont agree,

MAKE CONSTRUCTIVE ANSWERS, NOT DESTRUCTIVE, you won't go far if u do destructive answers...

Also, im sorry if i failed on my english grammar, im tired.


So before the patch App towers were useless right? After the patch, they are still useless, and now the squire towers are as well. Also, if you read the actual complaints, the complaints are about the damage being nerfed by an amount larger than what the patch notes stated. If you are going to insult people for not thinking, you should probably be able to comprehend what is going on first.

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Doesnt matter anymore, Even with a combination of towers from any class its next to immpossible to do Insane Summit, Lets not mention the bonus level or even Spooktacular.

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Okay , since clearly too many people are thinking the squire should keep being able to solo things , here is an optimal build , of a squire & apprentice conjunction-ed defense

MMT
Harpoon
spike barricade

this build , is a 2 player coop defensive act , that should work fairly well , I am explaining this , because you squires are so used to show off to your friends with the ability to solo EVERYTHING when the game was meant for COOP.

explanation of my poor sense because this defense seems stupid?
The spike barricade , now armed with higher amounts of HP , is meant for well , defending , it also deals damage to the mobs gathered around it , and ****ds them up in their place , pretty convinient.
The Harpoon turret , is meant for crowd control , it is meant to kill anything which should be killed by a single hit from the player (this regards , to small goblins and perhaps archers , and kobolds)
The magic Missile tower , is here for a single purpose , SINGLE TARGETS CONTROL.
magic missile towers are meant to kill things that are classed as 'higher monster rank' and it is not meant to deal with masses like the harpoon turret does.

The original intention of the harpoon was to kill masses , hence its pierce attack.
it was not meant to kill 2 birds a minute , 1 enemy in more then 5 seconds is a single target.
THE HARPOONS WERE NOT INTENDED TO KILL WHYVERNS STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT THEM NOT BEING ABLE TO KILL WHYVERNS!!!! >_<

just like the apprentice cannot deal with too many enemies , the squire cannot handle strong enemies.
Apprentice deals with quality , ans squire deals with quantity.

also @mercury - IKR! the combos should definitely be more balanced , however with the new kobold enhancement I actually find gas traps and ensaring auras more useful then ever before (hurr hurr at stopping a kobold with a running bomb on its back)

despite my example lacking the other classes , I just wanted to make this point clear - Apprentice deals with quality , and squire deals with quantity , end of story.

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lol so they make is possible to get the halloween costumes on hard but make it pretty much impossible to complete due to nerfs.

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Spike blockade is still crap. No one used it before and giving it 20% more hp doesn't make it useful. Bouncers are still king.

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Apprentice towers useless? Do you all have no stats in to hero att at all? Do you not even guard your area with support dps from your mages? Sounds like none of you even know how to even play an apprentice..

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Spike blockade is still crap. No one used it before and giving it 20% more hp doesn't make it useful. Bouncers are still king.



SHHHH before that gets nerfed too ffs.

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Okay , since clearly too many people are thinking the squire should keep being able to solo things , here is an optimal build , of a squire & apprentice conjunction-ed defense

MMT
Harpoon
spike barricade

this build , is a 2 player coop defensive act , that should work fairly well , I am explaining this , because you squires are so used to show off to your friends with the ability to solo EVERYTHING when the game was meant for COOP.

explanation of my poor sense because this defense seems stupid?
The spike barricade , now armed with higher amounts of HP , is meant for well , defending , it also deals damage to the mobs gathered around it , and ****ds them up in their place , pretty convinient.
The Harpoon turret , is meant for crowd control , it is meant to kill anything which should be killed by a single hit from the player (this regards , to small goblins and perhaps archers , and kobolds)
The magic Missile tower , is here for a single purpose , SINGLE TARGETS CONTROL.
magic missile towers are meant to kill things that are classed as 'higher monster rank' and it is not meant to deal with masses like the harpoon turret does.

The original intention of the harpoon was to kill masses , hence its pierce attack.
it was not meant to kill 2 birds a minute , 1 enemy in more then 5 seconds is a single target.
THE HARPOONS WERE NOT INTENDED TO KILL WHYVERNS STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT THEM NOT BEING ABLE TO KILL WHYVERNS!!!! >_<

just like the apprentice cannot deal with too many enemies , the squire cannot handle strong enemies.
Apprentice deals with quality , ans squire deals with quantity.

also @mercury - IKR! the combos should definitely be more balanced , however with the new kobold enhancement I actually find gas traps and ensaring auras more useful then ever before (hurr hurr at stopping a kobold with a running bomb on its back)

despite my example lacking the other classes , I just wanted to make this point clear - Apprentice deals with quality , and squire deals with quantity , end of story.


I'll go ahead and say this again, and perhaps you will understand this time. The nerf was advertised at 33%. The nerf, in reality, is 50%. Let's take this into a real world scenario. You take something to the cash register and there was a sign saying 50% off of something. It rings up for only 33% off. Where'd that extra 17% go? You would want the advertised value right? I thought so.

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Okay , since clearly too many people are thinking the squire should keep being able to solo things , here is an optimal build , of a squire & apprentice conjunction-ed defense

MMT
Harpoon
spike barricade

this build , is a 2 player coop defensive act , that should work fairly well , I am explaining this , because you squires are so used to show off to your friends with the ability to solo EVERYTHING when the game was meant for COOP.

explanation of my poor sense because this defense seems stupid?
The spike barricade , now armed with higher amounts of HP , is meant for well , defending , it also deals damage to the mobs gathered around it , and ****ds them up in their place , pretty convinient.
The Harpoon turret , is meant for crowd control , it is meant to kill anything which should be killed by a single hit from the player (this regards , to small goblins and perhaps archers , and kobolds)
The magic Missile tower , is here for a single purpose , SINGLE TARGETS CONTROL.
magic missile towers are meant to kill things that are classed as 'higher monster rank' and it is not meant to deal with masses like the harpoon turret does.

The original intention of the harpoon was to kill masses , hence its pierce attack.
it was not meant to kill 2 birds a minute , 1 enemy in more then 5 seconds is a single target.
THE HARPOONS WERE NOT INTENDED TO KILL WHYVERNS STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT THEM NOT BEING ABLE TO KILL WHYVERNS!!!! >_<

just like the apprentice cannot deal with too many enemies , the squire cannot handle strong enemies.
Apprentice deals with quality , ans squire deals with quantity.

also @mercury - IKR! the combos should definitely be more balanced , however with the new kobold enhancement I actually find gas traps and ensaring auras more useful then ever before (hurr hurr at stopping a kobold with a running bomb on its back)

despite my example lacking the other classes , I just wanted to make this point clear - Apprentice deals with quality , and squire deals with quantity , end of story.

The only problem is, the App stuff does not really target the important single target enemies. For example, my guess is harpoons are still better at handling mages than Magic Missile or Deadly Strike, because chances are it can hit mages with piercing stuff, while the MM/DST is gonna try to kill the 30 goblins in front of the mage first. Now that harpoon is nerfed into oblivion, I guess the only way to deal with those is huntress.

Also, Ensnare/Gas traps are pretty good for chokepoints, but that's not really adding variety... There're still few optimal tower compositions, it's just those contain more towers. On a side note, I doubt whether gas trap stops a kobold either, cuz I seem to remember kobolds can run through my gas trap if they light the fuse before entering it.

The App towers really need a AI buff, or we are not gonna have any effective long-range stuff and are just stuck with blockade+dps towers behind it strategy forever...

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@JRock4XL

I was not referring with my post to the original thread , of which I have no arguements to give agianst , if the patch notes are wrong , they are wrong , however , like in the jewish bible , perhaps they meant a different thing using the same words of what they said.

I could have given a lot of examples from my class , however I'd like to avoid matters of religion.

Anyways , I am sorry for enraging you agianst me thinking I am saying the false advertising is not false and you are.
You are frikkin' correct , the advertising is false , I am not talking about the main thread's case here , end of story (I hope).

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