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Im not sure if this has been discussed, implimented, or even possible, but I think it would be sweet if you opened a chest and the loot that fell out was bound to you game while your co-op players had their own loot drop on there game. lets face it fighting for chests is a pain in the rear end. Also it wouldn't reward the selfish defenders who go around and hog all the loot while everybody else is repairing/upgrading/building.

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thats a good idea, as you could still pick up the gear and trade it if you think it might help someone else.

but im not sure if its even possible for Trendy to do that. im not a game designer, so i dont know what they can and cant do.

but this is still a good idea.

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I would normally 100% agree with you on this man, but Dungeon Defenders is not the game for an individual loot system.

Trading is important, and while ninja looters are a pain in the rear end, we all have to deal with them. There's more than likely going to be an option for single player (and if there isn't, I guess I won't be playing very often) and you can farm just like in DD1.

But, there's so much more to my answer than that, overly simplified version of it.

Having an individual loot drop can potentially increase the better percent for a higher quality drop. [quote]But what's wrong with that?!11?[/quote] Well, everything is! This can severely unbalance the economy in Dungeon Defenders 2, and make it end up like DD1. The currency for DD2 needs to be given out fairly, and there needs to be plenty of mana sinks. Whether this be in an Auction House, or from potentially re-rolling the stats on an item to hope for a better stat set.

I think I've explained my point of view on this. Torchlight II did an amazing job with it, but I don't feel as if the separated loot would fit in with the style of this game.

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Having an individual loot drop can potentially increase the better percent for a higher quality drop.


....And developers have no ability to balance the RNG?

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....And developers have no ability to balance the RNG?


Not sure how you would to balance an already balanced system? It's simple time vs reward, and random is random.

They are more than capable of balancing it, but trying to balance it for this game would be a tad difficult when stats on weapons are what matter.

In my mind, I just see too many negatives versus the positives.

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lummy, what you said doesnt really make sense to me. the only negatives i see with this are that ninja looters can no longer steal and leave (bad for them, good for the rest of the players), and that there would probably be more things being sold, with a higher percentage of "sales stalls" being full of bad items.

each treasure chest would pop open and release one item for each player. instead of DD1 style, 0-3 items per chest. in a full game of 4 players, there would be much more loot from treasures alone, and enemies would have drop rates that make some enemies drop something for P1, but nothing for the rest, or whatever.

seriously, the only problem is that there is more loot, so it takes longer to look through it all at the end of a wave, or through shops for good things. it doesnt change the currency. when all items are sold at the end, each player gets mana in their bank equal to what the items they couldve kept sold for. thus, it gives everyone the currency they wouldve gotten with or without any help from other players (to an extent). it also doesnt split mana between the 4 players.

ok that brings up another problem. more loot coming out, more mana given to each player, there would be a ton more mana out there to trade with, so a big case of inflation (or deflation, or whatever. i got a C in economics, sorry). thats not as big a deal as the players just choosing to change currency though, which they would have no reason to at this point. they would still be buying single items.

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ok that brings up another problem. more loot coming out, more mana given to each player, there would be a ton more mana out there to trade with, so a big case of inflation (or deflation, or whatever. i got a C in economics, sorry). thats not as big a deal as the players just choosing to change currency though, which they would have no reason to at this point. they would still be buying single items.


Not necessarily. Trendy undoubtedly has control over how much drops and what drops. Random is random, but only as random as the game lets it be. They could easily design drops for one player, rewards for reaching a certain point in the game, and then everyone else who contributed would get the same thing, but probably different rolls. Everyone gets their loot, someone picking up an item doesn't eat into everyone else's profits, and people can OCD mass loot without a care in the world, or just let everything auto-sell while keeping an eye out for that certain item you want. There's no real downside.

Or they can keep it as it is now, with the ninja looters, people squabbling over that one awesome weapon that just dropped and what have you. You shouldn't be driven away from multiplayer because you're afraid they might nick your loot. That's not a what a game should be doing, especially one that thrives on cooperative play.

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Not necessarily. Trendy undoubtedly has control over how much drops and what drops. Random is random, but only as random as the game lets it be. They could easily design drops for one player, rewards for reaching a certain point in the game, and then everyone else who contributed would get the same thing, but probably different rolls. Everyone gets their loot, someone picking up an item doesn't eat into everyone else's profits, and people can OCD mass loot without a care in the world, or just let everything auto-sell while keeping an eye out for that certain item you want. There's no real downside.

Or they can keep it as it is now, with the ninja looters, people squabbling over that one awesome weapon that just dropped and what have you. You shouldn't be driven away from multiplayer because you're afraid they might nick your loot. That's not a what a game should be doing, especially one that thrives on cooperative play.


exactly. the segregated loot has no downside that outweighs all its positives. although, to be completely fair, the ninja looters (and the trolls in general) arent all that common. yeah, theres a lot of them, but they are still a small minority of people in the playerbase.

i dont think anyone is really driven away from multiplayer because of the trolls, or if anyone is, its only the paranoid.

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exactly. the segregated loot has no downside that outweighs all its positives. although, to be completely fair, the ninja looters (and the trolls in general) arent all that common. yeah, theres a lot of them, but they are still a small minority of people in the playerbase.

i dont think anyone is really driven away from multiplayer because of the trolls, or if anyone is, its only the paranoid.


Alrighty, I apologize if you can't see where I'm looking at things. Let me break it down for you :)

Bad side of things:
- More loot = more inflation, which means less value per mana
- little value for mana means this game could easily be a pay2win game
- Play Coins will be the new currency if the mana value depreciates
- More loot also means more rolls and can potentially increase higher quality drops
- Individual loot drops will use more resources
Good side of things:
- Each player has their own items to worry about
- Each player would get their own mana amount for their own items on their ground at end of the wave (To keep from other players leeching)
- 1/2 (Can be easily combatted by playing with friends) Save your loot from ninja looters/trollers/etc...

I'd assume map rewards would get tweaked. You get armor + weapon in the base game, but why not a possibility of either 2 Armor + 1 Weapon or 1 Armor + 2 Weapon? Just my thoughts on this matter.

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Alrighty, I apologize if you can't see where I'm looking at things. Let me break it down for you :)

Bad side of things:
- More loot = more inflation, which means less value per mana
- little value for mana means this game could easily be a pay2win game
- Play Coins will be the new currency if the mana value depreciates
- More loot also means more rolls and can potentially increase higher quality drops
- Individual loot drops will use more resources
Good side of things:
- Each player has their own items to worry about
- Each player would get their own mana amount for their own items on their ground at end of the wave (To keep from other players leeching)
- 1/2 (Can be easily combatted by playing with friends) Save your loot from ninja looters/trollers/etc...

I'd assume map rewards would get tweaked. You get armor + weapon in the base game, but why not a possibility of either 2 Armor + 1 Weapon or 1 Armor + 2 Weapon? Just my thoughts on this matter.


alright, now i see your side. thanks for explaining :D

although, some of these could be easily fixed. make play coins nontradable, not put mana in the playcoins shop. no conversion rate. no real way to trade between the two, no pay to win.

though, why did you bold that single line? what resources do you mean? mana to upgrade? or resources in game design, that would take longer to create and put into the game? or both? bear with me, im not the smartest of people youll meet.

to slow down the inflation rate, and make higher quality drops rarer, they could simply reduce the drop rate tremendously. there would still be inflation, but it would be far less noticeable if you only got 5-10 drops per player per wave.

bit off topic, but what was the limit on drops per wave in DD1? i know once you get so many pieces of loot out there, they start to disappear, but what was that limit?

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alright, now i see your side. thanks for explaining :D

although, some of these could be easily fixed. make play coins nontradable, not put mana in the playcoins shop. no conversion rate. no real way to trade between the two, no pay to win.

though, why did you bold that single line? what resources do you mean? mana to upgrade? or resources in game design, that would take longer to create and put into the game? or both? bear with me, im not the smartest of people youll meet.

to slow down the inflation rate, and make higher quality drops rarer, they could simply reduce the drop rate tremendously. there would still be inflation, but it would be far less noticeable if you only got 5-10 drops per player per wave.

bit off topic, but what was the limit on drops per wave in DD1? i know once you get so many pieces of loot out there, they start to disappear, but what was that limit?


Resources as in the amount of processing power required for the game. It's specifications you see when you go and buy a game from steam:

[quote]
Recommended Requirements for Dungeon Defenders 1



Core 2 Duo E4400 2.0GHz

Sempron X2 180

GD CPU hardware score: 4
Login



GeForce GT 220

Radeon HD 4650

GD GPU hardware score: 4
Login


2 GB

GD RAM hardware score: 4


Win 7 32


DX 9


2 GB [/quote]

The above are "resources".

I'm not sure on the exact numbers, but I would like to say about 200? It could be substantially less, but bigger maps seem to hold more loot.

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Alrighty, I apologize if you can't see where I'm looking at things. Let me break it down for you :)

Oh, yeah that clears it up a bit.

Bad side of things:
- More loot = more inflation, which means less value per mana

What irks me about this is that this already happens: more players = higher enemy spawn, higher item drop cap, higher difficulty, higher reward. Slightly more enemies would drop more loot but that would be a simple matter of toning down drop rates to manageable levels.
- little value for mana means this game could easily be a pay2win game
Has there been any information released as to how the F2P system in this game will work? I swear it was mentioned that you mostly got cosmetics and you didn't get much from the game itself.
- Play Coins will be the new currency if the mana value depreciates
- More loot also means more rolls and can potentially increase higher quality drops

These would fall to Trendy to make sure drops are somewhat balanced and things don't get out of hand. I may have mentioned elsewhere that around the UMF era in DD1 that it dropped better gear than it was supposed to and Trendy may have had no way to undo that after the patch was live, so they had to scale up content afterwards to match it (or it's intentional and I'm dumb. There was something about a nerf in the patch notes soon afterwards so aidunno). Hopefully their QA team will catch anything like this in the future.
- Individual loot drops will use more resources
While this would be something that Trendy would have to tell us "oh no we can't actually do this" if they decided to go ahead and test this. I would like to see a tweak on loot drops, however. A lot of what drops later on in the game is nothing more than vendor trash; it would be nice if vendor trash actually dropped instead of equipment that no one wants. That would probably cut down on resources.

Say instead of rolling like this:
>generate item level
>generate item type
>generate item color, model, etc.
>generate item stats based on item level and item type
>generate mana value based on stats


...it would go like this:
>generate item level
>if item level below a threshold, drop a mana token instead based on item level, if not, continue

This would probably lower the processing on item generation, especially if drops are server side and every player has their own items to deal with. This would have the benefit of telling players at a glance "this isn't anything interesting, move along" and still let them get some sort of reward for killing enough enemies. It would certainly shorten the "loot phase" that immediately follows the combat phase.


Good side of things:
- Each player has their own items to worry about
- Each player would get their own mana amount for their own items on their ground at end of the wave (To keep from other players leeching)

Ideally, everyone gets the same average item level rolls so that no one player walks away with absurd drops while no one else does. Or possibly generate different items based on the same item level roll.

- 1/2 (Can be easily combatted by playing with friends) Save your loot from ninja looters/trollers/etc...

This is true, but sometimes I like to play with randoms. See what kind of defenses they've devised, how they gear themselves, see if I can teach them a thing or two, see if I can learn from what they're doing. This is a Action RPG/Tower Defense hyrbrid, and the format lends itself to having many, many build possibilities, provided people aren't brute-forcing it with obscene stats harpoonspam.

I'd assume map rewards would get tweaked. You get armor + weapon in the base game, but why not a possibility of either 2 Armor + 1 Weapon or 1 Armor + 2 Weapon? Just my thoughts on this matter.

I liked armor + weapon better. I would just like it to be one based on the character you're using + a random weapon. Later maps just gave you random weapons which annoyed me, and it also ended up forcing you to finish a map with a certain character to get a specific rewards. Alternatively, give us a token that can be used to buy the weapon at vendor. Generate then token with an item level, then when you turn it in, you can pick which weapon you want, at which point it generates the stats on the spot.

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I think it's rediculous that anybody thinks that a segregated loot system would impact the game in such a way that it would be pay to win.... You are only buying characters and costumes.

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Oh, yeah that clears it up a bit.

Bad side of things:
- More loot = more inflation, which means less value per mana

What irks me about this is that this already happens: more players = higher enemy spawn, higher item drop cap, higher difficulty, higher reward. Slightly more enemies would drop more loot but that would be a simple matter of toning down drop rates to manageable levels.
- little value for mana means this game could easily be a pay2win game
Has there been any information released as to how the F2P system in this game will work? I swear it was mentioned that you mostly got cosmetics and you didn't get much from the game itself.
- Play Coins will be the new currency if the mana value depreciates
- More loot also means more rolls and can potentially increase higher quality drops

These would fall to Trendy to make sure drops are somewhat balanced and things don't get out of hand. I may have mentioned elsewhere that around the UMF era in DD1 that it dropped better gear than it was supposed to and Trendy may have had no way to undo that after the patch was live, so they had to scale up content afterwards to match it (or it's intentional and I'm dumb. There was something about a nerf in the patch notes soon afterwards so aidunno). Hopefully their QA team will catch anything like this in the future.
- Individual loot drops will use more resources
While this would be something that Trendy would have to tell us "oh no we can't actually do this" if they decided to go ahead and test this. I would like to see a tweak on loot drops, however. A lot of what drops later on in the game is nothing more than vendor trash; it would be nice if vendor trash actually dropped instead of equipment that no one wants. That would probably cut down on resources.

Say instead of rolling like this:
>generate item level
>generate item type
>generate item color, model, etc.
>generate item stats based on item level and item type
>generate mana value based on stats


...it would go like this:
>generate item level
>if item level below a threshold, drop a mana token instead based on item level, if not, continue

This would probably lower the processing on item generation, especially if drops are server side and every player has their own items to deal with. This would have the benefit of telling players at a glance "this isn't anything interesting, move along" and still let them get some sort of reward for killing enough enemies. It would certainly shorten the "loot phase" that immediately follows the combat phase.


Good side of things:
- Each player has their own items to worry about
- Each player would get their own mana amount for their own items on their ground at end of the wave (To keep from other players leeching)

Ideally, everyone gets the same average item level rolls so that no one player walks away with absurd drops while no one else does. Or possibly generate different items based on the same item level roll.

- 1/2 (Can be easily combatted by playing with friends) Save your loot from ninja looters/trollers/etc...

This is true, but sometimes I like to play with randoms. See what kind of defenses they've devised, how they gear themselves, see if I can teach them a thing or two, see if I can learn from what they're doing. This is a Action RPG/Tower Defense hyrbrid, and the format lends itself to having many, many build possibilities, provided people aren't brute-forcing it with obscene stats harpoonspam.

I'd assume map rewards would get tweaked. You get armor + weapon in the base game, but why not a possibility of either 2 Armor + 1 Weapon or 1 Armor + 2 Weapon? Just my thoughts on this matter.

I liked armor + weapon better. I would just like it to be one based on the character you're using + a random weapon. Later maps just gave you random weapons which annoyed me, and it also ended up forcing you to finish a map with a certain character to get a specific rewards. Alternatively, give us a token that can be used to buy the weapon at vendor. Generate then token with an item level, then when you turn it in, you can pick which weapon you want, at which point it generates the stats on the spot.


I'm fairly certain that you can trade Play Coins (or whatever their purchasable currency is) in-game. Don't quote me on that, but I want to say you can.

I think it's rediculous that anybody thinks that a segregated loot system would impact the game in such a way that it would be pay to win.... You are only buying characters and costumes.


How so? You may be buying characters and costumes, but let's not forget that PC's will more than likely be tradable and this will lead to mana being a sub-currency; only being used for upgrades, and quite possibly other players purchasing bundles of mana from other players with PC's. You can't over look the possibility of this depreciating mana.

On paper, this idea is beautiful. But when put it into play (see my list of bads) there's no telling what kind of mayhem this could cause.

Keeping the way loot drops is fine and I encourage it. The only time I have ever had a problem with ninja looters was when they either low leveled, or high level and no gear. There's plenty of time to kick if you see they're ninja looting. But what if they take that super ultimate++ piece of armor? You can always try and trade for it. Dungeon Defenders is all about the multiplayer, and no matter which game you play, there's always going to be greedy people.

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alright lummy, thanks for explaining that.

and 200? seriously? i wouldnt doubt it, because some maps will have an absurd number of things drop per wave, but 200 seems a bit high.


and id like to point out, i havent outright said the old DD1 style of loot dropping needs to go. i said it could be improved and tweaked, and segregated loot seems like an improvement to me, but even if it stays DD1 style completely, i wont complain.

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there's an easy way to fix resources problem from xxx dropped items caused by segregated loot, only show to a player the items that they can pick up, they could make X quality+ view-able to anyone so you could know that something you'd want dropped for someone else.

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Individual Loot.

Make the loot system like Dragon's Crown where you sort/deal with items AFTER the battle is over. In Dragon's Crown you open up "chests" which say "you got S rank loot" and you have no idea what it is. After the battle is over, it displays what loot you got and each person got a different sort of loot based on class but also based on the rank.

The novelty of picking up items, selling/sorting wears off REALLY fast. This process should be streamlined.

I wouldn't worry too much about "inflation". Just make it so there are less items then OR make the game more skill based rather than "gear" based.

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The items rewarded for killing bosses or completing maps should drop from their dead bodies or special chests appearing at the end instead of magically appearing in your item box. These items would of course be segregated drops.

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I think this idea profoundly increases the viability of multiplayer. I frequently play by myself in survival mode because I am the only one building and don't need help. More people in the game would only be taking my items.

Furthermore, this mechanic exists in Diablo 3, Path of Exile and Torchlight 2.

It should be implemented.

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there's an easy way to fix resources problem from xxx dropped items caused by segregated loot, only show to a player the items that they can pick up, they could make X quality+ view-able to anyone so you could know that something you'd want dropped for someone else.


yes there is many ways to make this system work. but as this is just a discussion evrybody can post there oppinion even if they cant see that it can be tuned to perfection. even if some cant see that. but in reality its probly too late in developement to impliment

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They're not even in pre-alpha yet, I believe they haven't even added items yet. I doubt it's too late in development to implement.

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They're not even in pre-alpha yet, I believe they haven't even added items yet. I doubt it's too late in development to implement.


I was about to say the exact opposite. They are in pre-alpha now. I'm sure quite a bit of the main functions of the game are working. Not even sure if TE reads/has read these. :l

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I was about to say the exact opposite. They are in pre-alpha now. I'm sure quite a bit of the main functions of the game are working. Not even sure if TE reads/has read these. :l


id agree with Windex here, i believe the pre-alpha build is one of, if not the, earliest playable build of the game. the best way to find what works in games is to have people test it every time you add something new or take something away. see what they like, what they dont, what bugs come up, whatever. test early and test often.

id be shocked if it were too late to implement something to help with the loot that hasnt been shown at all in any of the few DD2 videos. or even mentioned by Trendy in the blog posts.

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DD is designed to be a game that is played with teamwork involved. It was designed to be cooperative. To take loot and say you get this and you get that and you get this defeats the purpose of interactive gameplay. Most players play the game and respect other people. I help people and they help me. Its a give and take. There will always be the problematic people within any game. Its gonna happen. It will happen no matter what is done.

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