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WizardRed

"Will there be Defense Units in this game"

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pure strategy mode?


yea except the rewards for pure strategy mode were crap. and let it be done in campaign. like allow me to chose to play the entire campaign with just my towers, and be rewarded for it. i've beaten every one of the bosses with only towers on xbl and quite a few with only towers on pc but there is no special reward. same for dps, i think if you do an entire map with no tower ever placed you should get a bonus of some sort.

oh on a side note, why not make the summener have a certain set amount of mu per map, not the same as the du for it. and durring the wave instead of running around with pets. his minions are his dps. and if he isn't out neither are they. then they could actually incorperate the rts feel that they wanted to.

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are you forgetting its a tower defense game? the whole idea is if your build is good enough then you don't need dps. plus early game you cant do dps with a tower build effectively. also this is just a reasonable shift of his way to prevent certain problems such as people covering the map with auras traps and towers to a computer killing extent. there should be a hard cap. for the interest of unskilled players it should be higher than really needed but it should be there. and to compensate for the higher than needed du cap people that go below it should be rewarded.

i think i just realized why you got so hostile, i didn't mean it like if you came to my game and did nothing you keep your loot chance, i meant if you me classic and josh were playing and we built the map so well we didn't have to do any dps. we would get a bonus. if any single one of us(or our pets) did damage then all of our loot chances would drop based on the du used


You're wrong mate. It's an action rpg tower defense game. It was not ever developed to be a stand alone tower defense and daying you should get better rewards for not using dps is just so wrong imo. The game should encourage everyone putting in as much as they can and not afk'ing.

yea except the rewards for pure strategy mode were crap. and let it be done in campaign. like allow me to chose to play the entire campaign with just my towers, and be rewarded for it. i've beaten every one of the bosses with only towers on xbl and quite a few with only towers on pc but there is no special reward. same for dps, i think if you do an entire map with no tower ever placed you should get a bonus of some sort.

oh on a side note, why not make the summener have a certain set amount of mu per map, not the same as the du for it. and durring the wave instead of running around with pets. his minions are his dps. and if he isn't out neither are they. then they could actually incorperate the rts feel that they wanted to.


Again, the game is about the whole a-rpg/td feel. Taking it apart just makes it an ordinary dull experience. Every other td plays like you have said and it's boring.

:)

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You're wrong mate. It's an action rpg tower defense game. It was not ever developed to be a stand alone tower defense and daying you should get better rewards for not using dps is just so wrong imo. The game should encourage everyone putting in as much as they can and not afk'ing.

your wanting to make loot scale up the less towers you have. that means that dps builds will be the ones rewarded while the tower builders will be punished. all i've done is suggest a way to midigate that by creating a loophole so that pure tower builds(this all is mostly only relevent to early game) are not punished. i feel like most of you are thinking in terms of nightmare difficulty( something that was implemented so poorly that its not even funny and broke alot of the aspects of the game) for the sake of dd2 i've been working under the original 4 difficultys for my thinking as they were done quite well and short of the mage towers needing a buff and squire towers needing a slight nerf the game was amaizingly well ballanced


Again, the game is about the whole a-rpg/td feel. Taking it apart just makes it an ordinary dull experience. Every other td plays like you have said and it's boring.

:)


boring is a matter of opinion and i never said take it apart i said make it not be punished. i don't want to afk, i used to do pure strategy runs all the time for fun. they would have been better if it were possible to heal towers and such and the enemies were not all nerfed with there resistances removed. try playing a game of survival without doing dps. place towers where you need some extra damage and sell them when you don't(not on nightmare, nightmare broke this) run around healing towers and rebuilding defenses but don't do dps, its in no way afking, then grab a huntress with a soul focuser and sit at the crystal of any map and kill everything, tell me what feels more exciting. i don't want to take away dps, i truly enjoy it. its part of the experience, but most of this thread, including your post would result in it never being needed, unlimited du is a bad idea for all the reasons that you say not punishing people that only use towers is. you'll never need dps if you can just throw up 1000 deadly strikers or better yet 1000 harpoons and bowling balls.

p.s. if survival is still 3-7 hours long poeple are still gonna find a way to afk. i never did it but i know it was done. i used to let people use my games to level so that i had something to do during the rounds, most people just started it up got the build finished and watched tv or something to kill the time.

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your wanting to make loot scale up the less towers you have. that means that dps builds will be the ones rewarded while the tower builders will be punished. all i've done is suggest a way to midigate that by creating a loophole so that pure tower builds(this all is mostly only relevent to early game) are not punished. i feel like most of you are thinking in terms of nightmare difficulty( something that was implemented so poorly that its not even funny and broke alot of the aspects of the game) for the sake of dd2 i've been working under the original 4 difficultys for my thinking as they were done quite well and short of the mage towers needing a buff and squire towers needing a slight nerf the game was amaizingly well ballanced


boring is a matter of opinion and i never said take it apart i said make it not be punished. i don't want to afk, i used to do pure strategy runs all the time for fun. they would have been better if it were possible to heal towers and such and the enemies were not all nerfed with there resistances removed. try playing a game of survival without doing dps. place towers where you need some extra damage and sell them when you don't(not on nightmare, nightmare broke this) run around healing towers and rebuilding defenses but don't do dps, its in no way afking, then grab a huntress with a soul focuser and sit at the crystal of any map and kill everything, tell me what feels more exciting. i don't want to take away dps, i truly enjoy it. its part of the experience, but most of this thread, including your post would result in it never being needed, unlimited du is a bad idea for all the reasons that you say not punishing people that only use towers is. you'll never need dps if you can just throw up 1000 deadly strikers or better yet 1000 harpoons and bowling balls.

p.s. if survival is still 3-7 hours long poeple are still gonna find a way to afk. i never did it but i know it was done. i used to let people use my games to level so that i had something to do during the rounds, most people just started it up got the build finished and watched tv or something to kill the time.


You haven't listened to my suggestion at all.

My idea is based on scaling back rewards once you build passed a certain predetermined limit.

Bringing dps is a necessary function of the game, being an action rpg td. You insist on cutting out the dps.

I don't know how you think we are running with nightmare, no one has said that at all, and I certainly hope it never makes it back. I've been playing this game since the start, long before 99% of everyone here. I'm well aware of how this plays, and building dps and builders chars is easier in early game due to the limited stat distribution that the original game had. My friends and I were playing survival before you even knew it existed. Playing for 5+ hours on mobile was long and hard, and no one else was doing it. Saying it like all I've ever done is campaign is silly.

The new dd2 videos show character changing on the fly bringing a lot more opportunity to the game, being able to freely change between your builders and dps.

Who knows, maybe they will balance it enough that you won't need a dps and a tower builder, maybe it will all be hybrids.

I never suggested a limitless supply of towers. All I did was say you could build in tiers of reduced loot quality. All the numbers I provided would need to be looked at heavily.

Again, your idea of rewarding a system that encourages people not use an intended part of the game play is just so wrong imo.

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I never suggested a limitless supply of towers. All I did was say you could build in tiers of reduced loot quality. All the numbers I provided would need to be looked at heavily.

thats what pretty much everyone took from it, so thats what i took from it too. i want dps encoraged i just don't want pure tower characters being punished for that. snipers are in cod, should someone that prefers shotguns be punished for not useing them?

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I never suggested a limitless supply of towers. All I did was say you could build in tiers of reduced loot quality. All the numbers I provided would need to be looked at heavily.

thats what pretty much everyone took from it, so thats what i took from it too. i want dps encoraged i just don't want pure tower characters being punished for that. snipers are in cod, should someone that prefers shotguns be punished for not useing them?


Please do not compare two things that are completely unrelated.

You need to look at the footage before running off with wildish ideas. You can swap characters mid wave.

Who even said we would need dedicated tower and dps characters? Maybe we won't, maybe hybrids will be the new flavour.

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if nothing else classic i know we agree that nightmare is bad, and you and i practically never see eye to eye. no supprise that this is any differant.


It's not about seeing eye to eye, as I value everyone's right to have their own opinion. I know that not all of my ideas are good ideas too, but unless I post them, I can't say I said so.

What I don't get is why anyone would want to reward players for only being active during the build phase and then do nothing during the wave?

We should be encouraging players to constantly get their hands dirty and get amongst it.

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It's not about seeing eye to eye, as I value everyone's right to have their own opinion. I know that not all of my ideas are good ideas too, but unless I post them, I can't say I said so.

What I don't get is why anyone would want to reward players for only being active during the build phase and then do nothing during the wave?

We should be encouraging players to constantly get their hands dirty and get amongst it.


i agree we should encorage people to get in the heat of it. i just don't want the pure stratigy game mode(if it still exists) to suck as bad as dd1's did

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i agree we should encorage people to get in the heat of it. i just don't want the pure stratigy game mode(if it still exists) to suck as bad as dd1's did


PS was not ever a means of getting good loot, but more of a personal accomplishment.

I personally oppose any increase to PS loot that would bring it on par with campaign.

While we're at it, I hope survival gets a huge overhaul too. Anything longer than 2 to maybe 3 hours is just ridiculous and boring. Putting the best loot on a grind fest is just a bad idea too.

Let's get this back to topic. Anyone else have ideas on DU?

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PS should be on par, if not better. It should be harder to do. DPS makes the game easier. A good team of 4 can do the majority of the base game maps without building a single tower unit.

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PS should be on par, if not better. It should be harder to do. DPS makes the game easier. A good team of 4 can do the majority of the base game maps without building a single tower unit.


thank god someone can see what i'm saying. also eagle when dd2 comes out should i hit you up for the event team?

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PS should be on par, if not better. It should be harder to do. DPS makes the game easier. A good team of 4 can do the majority of the base game maps without building a single tower unit.


Yes it totally makes sense to penalize those who play all functions of the game. /sarcasm

It is not a pure TD game. If you want to play pure TD, go play something else.

DD made action rpg td. That's the way it should be played.

Besides, PS is weak in dd anyway. Totally expected this line of comments from eagle...

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Yes it totally makes sense to penalize those who play all functions of the game. /sarcasm

It is not a pure TD game. If you want to play pure TD, go play something else.

DD made action rpg td. That's the way it should be played.

Besides, PS is weak in dd anyway. Totally expected this line of comments from eagle...


You're awesome! I hated PS, just saying. It was pretty boring.

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Yes it totally makes sense to penalize those who play all functions of the game. /sarcasm

It is not a pure TD game. If you want to play pure TD, go play something else.

DD made action rpg td. That's the way it should be played.

Besides, PS is weak in dd anyway. Totally expected this line of comments from eagle...


Please explain how it is penalizing someone? You want to reward someone for building less? So because the player is OP, they get better gear? So once a person devises a build, everyone else can cookie cutter it off of DD planner? Let's think this through. Also, it seems that because someone has a different point of view you attack them? Good Game Fine Sir

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Please explain how it is penalizing someone? You want to reward someone for building less? So because the player is OP, they get better gear? So once a person devises a build, everyone else can cookie cutter it off of DD planner? Let's think this through. Also, it seems that because someone has a different point of view you attack them? Good Game Fine Sir


Attack you? How so champ? C'mon mate, get off your horse.

PS is a trivial change the system which not only makes things a lot easier, it also obliterates half of the content. Enemies have no alignments, characters are rendered useless during combat and all the fun goes out the window.

You like to run off in tangents. Not once did I say I want the players to build less, quite the contrary actually.

I want to personally promote players building and DPS as much as they can, because that is what makes this game unique, unless you didn't realise that? Never said anything about the player being OP, was kinda running off the belief that balance in dd2 would be far greater than its predecessor.

My suggestion so far has been so radical to the current system it almost guarantees that people won't be using cookie cutter builds, unless you're a sheep who has to rely on other people working it out for you...

I will say it again, this post is about DU and how it could be utilised in dd2. If you have nothing further to add, just don't post please. Many thanks in advance :)

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Attack you? How so champ? C'mon mate, get off your horse. - Totally expected this line of comments from eagle...

Hmm, I don't need a horse mate, I got wings and fly.

PS is a trivial change the system which not only makes things a lot easier, it also obliterates half of the content. Enemies have no alignments, characters are rendered useless during combat and all the fun goes out the window.

A) I never once said it was superior in DD1. Had I been a part of the development I would not have pulled the ogres out, etc. etc. If all things remain the same, it would make PS much more difficult than Campaign or Survival.

You like to run off in tangents. Not once did I say I want the players to build less, quite the contrary actually.

I want to personally promote players building and DPS as much as they can, because that is what makes this game unique, unless you didn't realise that? Never said anything about the player being OP, was kinda running off the belief that balance in dd2 would be far greater than its predecessor.


"If you build less you get better gear." That is not supporting building in any way, shape, form, or function. It is trying to turn the game into another pure monster shooter. We already have a borderlands, don't need another. Sarcasm incoming, I never once realized DD was unique in allowing someone to build a tower and shoot at things.

My suggestion so far has been so radical to the current system it almost guarantees that people won't be using cookie cutter builds, unless you're a sheep who has to rely on other people working it out for you...

Your suggestion guarantees it for the majority of the players. Why do you think the guides section exists on these forums? Because people want to look up how to do something without the trial and error of doing it themselves. C'mon Classic, how many guides did you make about Misty and talks with people about how to beat it when it came out?

I will say it again, this post is about DU and how it could be utilised in dd2. If you have nothing further to add, just don't post please. Many thanks in advance

A) Last I looked, this was not your thread.
B) I have still been talking about DU, just because there isn't a hard cap doesn't mean is isn't controlled.
C) You're quite welcome that I continue to offer up my pearls of wisdom. Have a good day.

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it seems like you guys are misunderstanding each other on a certain point-

I don't think classic22 wants loot to increase for building less all the way down to 0 towers. Just that the highest loot quality / quantity or whatever possible would still have a very reasonable amount of DU for the map (maybe 40-60 or something). Building over that penalizes slightly.


Personally I'm leaning towards a no-DU system, just because I think tower setups are more amusing and enjoyable with lots of towers. I think one aspect of difficulty that was never explored in DD1 and that could help immensely in balancing DD2 was pathing. Forcing monster pathing is a staple of most tower-D games I've played, and adds a lot of strategy to how you set up.

If all the monsters basically walk straight towards your crystal as they do in DD1, you can only make the monsters do more damage and take more damage in order to make the game harder (besides having monsters have special abilities, but at a certain point even abilities are somewhat trivialized).

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Pure Strategy is there as an option for players. I fully agree that the game would be no fun if it was all Pure strategy. The mode is however a nice change of pace and can be a great way to level up your builders.

Most builders are extremely vulnerable to cheap shots from enemies because most builders get resists ignored in favor of tower power.

All though not my favorite thing in the world PS is a nice change of pace.

Those looking for a very solid PS challenge go hit tinkers lab on PS it is still very challenging in fact for some players maybe harder if you rely on heavy DPS.

Insane is VERY glitchy and NM still has very strong enemies + lack of DPS + massively reduced Mana from enemy drops it vanishes very quickly.

Give it a shot.

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[QUOTE] I never once said it was superior in DD1. Had I been a part of the development I would not have pulled the ogres out, etc. etc. If all things remain the same, it would make PS much more difficult than Campaign or Survival.[/QUOTE]

Had you have been part of the development you would have made PS the star of the game? Glad you had nothing to do with dd then...

[QUOTE]"If you build less you get better gear." That is not supporting building in any way, shape, form, or function. It is trying to turn the game into another pure monster shooter. We already have a borderlands, don't need another. Sarcasm incoming, I never once realized DD was unique in allowing someone to build a tower and shoot at things. [/QUOTE]

You see the problem here isn't with my idea, but rather your lack of comprehension of my idea.

My idea is simple. Just like dd1 you have a cap in DU, now it's just a soft cap. Say deeper well has 30 du. If you build with 30 du or less, you attract 100% of the loot potential. If you start to build over that, the loot you get starts to slightly degrade in quality.

This encourages people to build efficient builds and look for new ways to do things. This also enables people to be a little more flexible with their builds adding tons of replay value.

[QUOTE] Your suggestion guarantees it for the majority of the players. Why do you think the guides section exists on these forums? Because people want to look up how to do something without the trial and error of doing it themselves. C'mon Classic, how many guides did you make about Misty and talks with people about how to beat it when it came out? [/QUOTE]

All of which could be scrapped with my idea. Soft capping du limits would enable people to make and refine their own builds as they desire, and not have to rely on others due to an underwhelming cap of du.

I did make guides because of the problems I outlined above. Poor du caps made life difficult and there was usually only very limited builds available that worked. This all due to a number of balancing issues to be discussed on a different thread.

[QUOTE]A) Last I looked, this was not your thread.
B) I have still been talking about DU, just because there isn't a hard cap doesn't mean is isn't controlled.
C) You're quite welcome that I continue to offer up my pearls of wisdom. Have a good day.[/QUOTE]

This may not be my thread but that doesn't give you the right to derail it like you have. You have to follow the forum rules like everyone else. As such I'll report anything from here on out that contradicts the rules.

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I asked this in the stream and I was told to give suggestions so I am. Hopefully I'll be heard.

In DD1, it was usually just one person building everything in the map, and then there might be someone who wants to build, but can't because they don't want to loose the bonus of the "One builder" perk for experience.

Here are a few of my suggestions.

1: Split DU among players. Say there's 15 DU, and 3 players, give them each 5 DU. And if they wish, they may give their DU to other players.

2: Remove DU completely, but instead limit how much mana (Tana?) you'll receive later in the map. Say it's survival, as you go on, you'll only be able to build so much after so long, so you'll either save up for upgrading or building more defenses.

3: This is a mix of the first. Standardize DU for each map, and make each defense require only 1 defense. This will mean placing down specific defenses become much more important (Say an extra wall over a Huntress "Pond Trap").


Thanks for the suggestions WizardRed!

I know the subject of DU can get out of hand. There has been so many arguments over it here in the office already. I have read this thread and there are some interesting ideas here. I'm making sure the devs see these ideas and the pros/cons that you guys came up with.

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