"Will there be Defense Units in this game"

I asked this in the stream and I was told to give suggestions so I am. Hopefully I'll be heard.

In DD1, it was usually just one person building everything in the map, and then there might be someone who wants to build, but can't because they don't want to loose the bonus of the "One builder" perk for experience.

Here are a few of my suggestions.

1: Split DU among players. Say there's 15 DU, and 3 players, give them each 5 DU. And if they wish, they may give their DU to other players.

2: Remove DU completely, but instead limit how much mana (Tana?) you'll receive later in the map. Say it's survival, as you go on, you'll only be able to build so much after so long, so you'll either save up for upgrading or building more defenses.

3: This is a mix of the first. Standardize DU for each map, and make each defense require only 1 defense. This will mean placing down specific defenses become much more important (Say an extra wall over a Huntress "Pond Trap").

honestly i think the DU should come back. basically option 1 in your post. except, make it more positive towards teamwork. first stage, one player, 50 DU. first stage, 2 players, each get 30, and theres more enemies. 3 players, each get 25, with more enemies. 4 players, each get 25 again, but with one extra wave, and a miniboss at the end (like an ogre).

it then forces all 4 players to build, stats dont matter. of course, itll be near impossible to grind low level characters up with high level characters on hard maps because of this, but itll also mean that the game revolves around teamwork. if you dont coordinate tower placements with each other, youll lose. the scaling difficulty based on number of players would also be interesting.

and if the DUs dont come back, then they need to supercharge survival modes somehow. preferably NOT what they did on 360, and make each wave last hours. make them stronger, not longer.

Pretty sure they mentioned a no DU limit --- so infinite DU :)

Pretty sure they mentioned a no DU limit --- so infinite DU :)

actually they said that half of the Trendy team favored "no DUs." while the other half of the team said "bring DUs back!"

they are undecided on this so far, and they said so. for good reason too, as this is a huge mechanic in the game, and both sides have fantastic arguments.

I like the idea of teamwork but forcing others and having to rely on them to build to win a map will be frustrating in a public game. Perhaps a game mode called teamwork where it's an option checked similar to hardcore mode. Even Higher quality loot!.
The reason there is only 1 builder in games is because that person has a strategic placement of defenses in their head. If someone randomly builds they compromise the defense and the success of the map. Nobody wants to waste 20-30 minutes because someone placed a low level wall that couldn't hold the last wave or a fireball tower that couldn't stop the fire immune wyverns.

No, I asked them in the steam and they said they weren't sure if there was, and told me to post here to give suggestions on "how to best represent Defense units"

What if the amount of DU used slowly decreased the loot quality depending on how much DU was used.

For example, Deeper Well.

30 DU or less = 100% loot potential
31-35 = 90%
36-40 = 80%
41-45 = 70%
46+ = 60%

This gives a sliding scale and enables players to test adjust and gruadually work on their builds, refining them to get better loot. The quality limit will have to be displayed near the DU used.

Just a thought.

What if the amount of DU used slowly decreased the loot quality depending on how much DU was used.

For example, Deeper Well.

30 DU or less = 100% loot potential
31-35 = 90%
36-40 = 80%
41-45 = 70%
46+ = 60%

This gives a sliding scale and enables players to test adjust and gruadually work on their builds, refining them to get better loot. The quality limit will have to be displayed near the DU used.

Just a thought.

if that was the only thing DUs did, then id love this. itd set a bar for players getting to a new map. they could see one number and already know if they should be building a ton, or just a bit. it could also work as a sort of "High Score" to challenge your friends to beat. see who can win a stage with the lowest DU cost.

and if the players are too weak, they can just build far past the DU limit, till they find something that works. they can come back later to reduce their DU score.

youre a genius, this is a great idea.

What if the amount of DU used slowly decreased the loot quality depending on how much DU was used.

For example, Deeper Well.

30 DU or less = 100% loot potential
31-35 = 90%
36-40 = 80%
41-45 = 70%
46+ = 60%

This gives a sliding scale and enables players to test adjust and gruadually work on their builds, refining them to get better loot. The quality limit will have to be displayed near the DU used.

Just a thought.

I personally favor a "no DU" limit, and here's why;

Nearly any way you want to put in Defense Units, it's still going to come down to who has the better stats and the better placement of towers. It's almost the same rhyme and reason as it was in DD1; the people with the better stats built 99% of the time.

With no DU though, people can build around freely and have more fun; and have the feeling that they're contributing.

But...

I also favor DU. Having a "no DU" limit would allow for the possibility of someone spamming towers to overpower the map and win. DU balances this out, and makes it so that you need to try and figure out a strategy to win, while keeping at, or below, your maximum allowed DU.

I can see why they're undecided. I guess, after thinking about it, I'm in favor of DU again. It makes the player think about different strategies, even if they have weaker towers.

OP; put up a poll and let's all have vote! :)

I personally favor a "no DU" limit, and here's why;

Nearly any way you want to put in Defense Units, it's still going to come down to who has the better stats and the better placement of towers. It's almost the same rhyme and reason as it was in DD1; the people with the better stats built 99% of the time.

With no DU though, people can build around freely and have more fun; and have the feeling that they're contributing.

But...

I also favor DU. Having a "no DU" limit would allow for the possibility of someone spamming towers to overpower the map and win. DU balances this out, and makes it so that you need to try and figure out a strategy to win, while keeping at, or below, your maximum allowed DU.

I can see why they're undecided. I guess, after thinking about it, I'm in favor of DU again. It makes the player think about different strategies, even if they have weaker towers.

OP; put up a poll and let's all have vote! :)

Kinda confused as to why you quoted me, seems you agree with my idea? =/

Sorry, just want to clarify.

The figures I wrote are probably too harsh, perhaps they should be 100%, 95%, 85% and 80%.

Something the devs could work out for sure if they even decided to look into this idea.

What if the amount of DU used slowly decreased the loot quality depending on how much DU was used.

For example, Deeper Well.

30 DU or less = 100% loot potential
31-35 = 90%
36-40 = 80%
41-45 = 70%
46+ = 60%

This gives a sliding scale and enables players to test adjust and gruadually work on their builds, refining them to get better loot. The quality limit will have to be displayed near the DU used.

Just a thought.

I REALLY like this idea, this would allow for lower geared players to progress into harder maps by placing more DU worth of towers but they won't get as much or as good of loot. Also for me I like to come up with creative builds for maps that aren't necessarily optimal. This would allow for the flexibility to try out new and fun builds while also benefiting those that want to have the BEST build on the map.

I am highly opposed to a hard DU limit as it really took away from the fun in DD1 in my opinion.

Kinda confused as to why you quoted me, seems you agree with my idea? =/

Sorry, just want to clarify.

The figures I wrote are probably too harsh, perhaps they should be 100%, 95%, 85% and 80%.

Something the devs could work out for sure if they even decided to look into this idea.

I'm half and half on it. If they tweak those numbers to something reasonable (lower % taken off starting, but then gradually becomes more and more, and could possibly cap at 25%? This way you still get decent gear to try and farm. 25% may be too high, again, it could be lower. Just some figures for comprehension! :) )

I like the idea of each map having a set DU cap to obtain the 100% loot potential, but decreases as you build past the DU cap. It's like having the best of both worlds. I agree the fun part of dd1 when I first started was building on others maps, but there was always someone who didn't understand strategic placement. Rather than work as a team, he would place towers further up in front of yours so his would get the kills. Even though that person was probably having fun, he saw no harm in his actions.

There will always have to be 1 main builder with great stats or a dictator on the placement of defences. This is a RPG tower defence game. You shouldn't be able to beat a map if you just randomly place towers everywhere(tower defence-strategy) and beat higher levels with beginner stats(RPG). If they were to get rid of the RPG element of this game and relied solely on towers that were not affected by stats, then the majority of people would stop playing once they've completed the game. It's the character progression that keeps players hooked.

I'm half and half on it. If they tweak those numbers to something reasonable (lower % taken off starting, but then gradually becomes more and more, and could possibly cap at 25%? This way you still get decent gear to try and farm. 25% may be too high, again, it could be lower. Just some figures for comprehension! :) )

The percentage ratio should depend on what is expected of the player ie: difficulty. On the beginner maps the loot won't be the best, and these are the places where those unfamiliar with DD will test around so they shouldn't be punished that hard, and I think the scale should progressively get harder as you ascend through the levels.

Once you start to compete in high tier, high reward and high difficulty mission segments then the punishment should be ruthless for extra towers if the drops you're going to be getting are some of the best in the game.

Done this way it lets the new players and more casual players experiment with builds and their own way of doing things, while easing into a more difficult style of play. Along side that the hardcore and more dedicated players get to think out strategies for harder levels therefore giving them maximum loot potential and still having a difficulty curve too it.

Now if done correctly, the casual and more veteran/hardcore players can meet in the middle and will eventually be able to play with each other without a problem because the casual players themselves have been slowly moved into a more thoughtful style of play, giving headroom for strategies on both sides.

and even if people want to just play the harder maps for fun, then nothing is stopping them from using more towers than the game wants them too, it just means less reward for them, and that's not that bad when you think about it.

DU are the means to control number of towers available and not allow players to cover entire map with infinite number of towers, both for balance and performance reasons.

Of course this could be done in different way, but I think DUs do their job nicely.

I just thought of this today, and it seems to make sense to me anyhow.

How about, the DUCD (Defense Unit Counter Display) displays originally how many towers you are allowed to use for 100%, untouched, loot drops (stat wise, etc...), then, when you go above the current maximum cap for 100%, it drops the loot quality down 10%, and adds more DU based on the map and difficulty.

If they could do something with more players=less DU, that would be alright; granted they can come to an acceptable range. Otherwise, they can just leave out any sort of DU adjustments based on players currently in map type of deal.

(will revise my post if I remember more of it)

I just thought of this today, and it seems to make sense to me anyhow.

How about, the DUCD (Defense Unit Counter Display) displays originally how many towers you are allowed to use for 100%, untouched, loot drops (stat wise, etc...), then, when you go above the current maximum cap for 100%, it drops the loot quality down 10%, and adds more DU based on the map and difficulty.

If they could do something with more players=less DU, that would be alright; granted they can come to an acceptable range. Otherwise, they can just leave out any sort of DU adjustments based on players currently in map type of deal.

(will revise my post if I remember more of it)

You're practically saying what I have already. Although I really can't agree with decreasing DU based on the amount of players.

If they incorporated both it would be too complicated imo.

I'll explain mine better when I get around to it and have access to my computer.

You're practically saying what I have already. Although I really can't agree with decreasing DU based on the amount of players.

If they incorporated both it would be too complicated imo.

I'll explain mine better when I get around to it and have access to my computer.

I was more keen on the DU Display :) You have a fantastic idea, and let's hope TE see's this :p

I was more keen on the DU Display :) You have a fantastic idea, and let's hope TE see's this :p

No worries :)

I'll elaborate more on what my idea is (stealing a little of yours in the process), All figures are just a guide only to make my point;

Every map is allocated a secret number that generates loot potential:

Deeper Well: 40%
Alchemical Laboratory: 50%
The Throne Room: 60%
The Summit: 70% ...

With those figures, playing on max difficulty would yield those numbers using a defined limit of DU. If you were to go over the allowable DU it would start to decrease the loot potential e.g.

Deeper Well: 40% (@<30 DU) 38% (@31-35 DU) 36% (@36-40 DU) and 34% (@41+ DU)

The list would go on like so.

The advantages to a system like this is it rewards players for strengthening and optimising their builds whilst not limiting them to only using certain kinds of builds.

There are many other issues that need to be targeted simultaneously like; removing negatives from loot values, individual loot etc

As you were talking about a loot counter, I would envision the counter being like it is currently, it shows (for example):

28/30
34/30
38/30
48/30

Where the colour change shows you what loot tier you are in. Toggling the mini map would show you on the side what DU limits coincided with each loot tier. I really want to make a picture to better represent this, but I can't right now :(

There are issues with a system like this.

1) There are always trolls. I guarantee that there would be someone who would wait until there are five people to kill and then go build happy throwing up stuff just to get over the optimized DU quota.

2) This severely punishes the beginners and those who don't DPS. If you are overgeared for DPS, it is easy to underbuild a map. Take Deeper Well for example. I bet a third of the top people in the game could probably come close to beating survival without building anything more than an aura stack and some walls. They may not even need the walls. Especially if you had 2 or 3 players in the game.

3) What in my opinion is the most obvious control, there is a lack of funds. Unless DD2 brings back genies, they can easily control how much you build. You can't build something if you have no mana. There in lies the other side of the coin. If they allow upgrading in DD2, then one must decide between making their tower stronger or building it a buddy to help fight.

There are issues with a system like this.

1) There are always trolls. I guarantee that there would be someone who would wait until there are five people to kill and then go build happy throwing up stuff just to get over the optimized DU quota.

2) This severely punishes the beginners and those who don't DPS. If you are overgeared for DPS, it is easy to underbuild a map. Take Deeper Well for example. I bet a third of the top people in the game could probably come close to beating survival without building anything more than an aura stack and some walls. They may not even need the walls. Especially if you had 2 or 3 players in the game.

3) What in my opinion is the most obvious control, there is a lack of funds. Unless DD2 brings back genies, they can easily control how much you build. You can't build something if you have no mana. There in lies the other side of the coin. If they allow upgrading in DD2, then one must decide between making their tower stronger or building it a buddy to help fight.

1) you are correct, and there were trolls in DD1 too. they could just sell one set of defenses, and the creeps can then march to the crystal freely. no matter what system you use, trolls will find a way to kill you.

2) it punishes beginners, but not drastically. they would still have a high chance of getting better gear on new maps, until they get stuck on one. then they can go back, and use their improved stats to get better gear from old maps, that they can use to beat the map they were stuck on. its not a drastic punishment. and theres still leveling up that hasnt been talked about. they could play old maps to use less DUs, and gain xp whether they get gear or not.

3) this is a good point. though, every enemy in the pre-alpha was dropping tower mana. on survival maps, there would be no lack of funds when theres thousands of enemies per wave. i personally think they should mix this with classic's idea. DUs measure loot potential, and you can only build what you have mana for. sure, its easy to beat survival, but you get the worst possible rewards then. if you want good rewards, you need to put in some strategy, effort, and have good stats.

i like the flexable du limit but i think it should still have a hard cap.

say for example deeper well recomended du 30, do it with 15 and get a 20% better chance at loot. do it at 45 and get a 25% reduced chance and cap it at 45 to prevent placeing to many towers. give flexability but without allowing people to basically throw up towers accross the entire map.
also give a bonus to people whom do absolutely no dps, like if you hit the 45 but do no dps you keep your 20% better loot chance

i like the flexable du limit but i think it should still have a hard cap.

say for example deeper well recomended du 30, do it with 15 and get a 20% better chance at loot. do it at 45 and get a 25% reduced chance and cap it at 45 to prevent placeing to many towers. give flexability but without allowing people to basically throw up towers accross the entire map.
also give a bonus to people whom do absolutely no dps, like if you hit the 45 but do no dps you keep your 20% better loot chance

Yes, let's have no one contribute anything to DPS. Because that's just exactly how a multiplayer game should be played, right? No. No. No. We need incentive to damage enemies not not damage enemies and AFK the whole time. You're supposed to be contributing to the build/map, not mooching.

As for the rest of your post above, Classic's idea is what works. There isn't a hard cap, as once you go past the limit for maximizing your loot quality, there's almost no reason to continue playing the map. His idea has been the most balanced thus far, and while it could still use a little tweaking on some things, it's what will hopefully be incorporated.

bonus to people whom do absolutely no dps, like if you hit the 45 but do no dps you keep your 20% better loot chance

pure strategy mode?

Yes, let's have no one contribute anything to DPS. Because that's just exactly how a multiplayer game should be played, right? No. No. No. We need incentive to damage enemies not not damage enemies and AFK the whole time. You're supposed to be contributing to the build/map, not mooching.

As for the rest of your post above, Classic's idea is what works. There isn't a hard cap, as once you go past the limit for maximizing your loot quality, there's almost no reason to continue playing the map. His idea has been the most balanced thus far, and while it could still use a little tweaking on some things, it's what will hopefully be incorporated.

are you forgetting its a tower defense game? the whole idea is if your build is good enough then you don't need dps. plus early game you cant do dps with a tower build effectively. also this is just a reasonable shift of his way to prevent certain problems such as people covering the map with auras traps and towers to a computer killing extent. there should be a hard cap. for the interest of unskilled players it should be higher than really needed but it should be there. and to compensate for the higher than needed du cap people that go below it should be rewarded.

i think i just realized why you got so hostile, i didn't mean it like if you came to my game and did nothing you keep your loot chance, i meant if you me classic and josh were playing and we built the map so well we didn't have to do any dps. we would get a bonus. if any single one of us(or our pets) did damage then all of our loot chances would drop based on the du used